new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[saysfaa]

...

Since the self selection pullets were the only ones able to freely consume as much protein as they wanted, perhaps that's why they laid slightly better?
The one group that was only provided grain, minerals and free range only consumed 9.3% protein! ...

Other studies have found chickens eat to meet energy rather than to meet protein. It is so for cattle too. Or, at least they do if it a simple choice between the two. Some of the cafeteria choices (lots of choices each offered individually) indicate they will eat to meet other categories too.

In this study, the group that consumed 9.3% protein also consumed the protein in the alfalfa and insects and such. Since they kept the alfalfa stripped enough it didn't need clipping like the other plots did, they foraged in it heavily.

 

[saysfaa]

Right, I saw that, only the self selection group that had access to range laid slightly better. Which makes you wonder if it was less about the food and more about their overall well being?

...not much of a selection there, or any one thing that might be especially preferred over another. ...

I see both of these in this study too.

I think it is valuable even with the limitations, especially given the numbers of birds involved.

 

[Geena]

I see both of these in this study too.

I think it is valuable even with the limitations, especially given the numbers of birds involved.

Valuable if they are only going to be offered foodstuffs that are equally palatable and healthy. Otherwise IMO not so much.
To me it's like saying if you offered humans only grilled chicken, vegetables, greens and vitamins they would be likely to select a healthy diet. Make apple pie with vanilla ice cream one of the selections and see what happens, LOL

Case in point- my chicken pastures both have mulberry trees in them. When the mulberries ripen and fall my chickens eat pretty much nothing but mulberries for at least 4 weeks! Their feed bowls are untouched and they don't range far from the tree. When the mulberries are about done some of the chickens will actually stand under the tree all day just waiting for a mulberry to fall and then fight over it when it does, LOL.

It's wonderful FREE food source but it makes me wonder what would happen if the mulberries were available year round.

 

[Perris]

To me it's like saying if you offered humans only grilled chicken, vegetables, greens and vitamins they would be likely to select a healthy diet. Make apple pie with vanilla ice cream one of the selections and see what happens, LOL

You keep making these comparisons between chickens and people Geena. Find me a single research paper that supports this idea of yours.

 

[Geena]

I don't need a research paper in regards to humans, I just have to look around while I'm at Walmart.

As far as chickens, for pete's sake I'm not actually comparing chickens to humans I'm only offering that as an analogy.

I did give an example of chicken behavior which you apparently overlooked?

 

[Perris]

I'm not actually comparing chickens to humans I'm only offering that as an analogy

an analogy is implicitly a comparison. And if it is not, what exactly is your point?

I did offer an example of chicken behavior which you apparently overlooked?

Animals gorging on seasonal bounty is a commonplace. I expect they wouldn't gorge if the mulberries were available all year round.

You apparently overlooked my mealworm example.

 

[Geena]

An analogy is a comparison made for the purpose of explanation.
This illustrates exactly how these sorts of discussions get so far off track, because often certain pieces of information are cherry picked while other equally valid pieces of information are completed discarded because they don't fit the narrative.

I too would expect that they wouldn't continue to gorge on mulberries year round, but I have no way to either prove or disprove that.
I did see your post about the mealworms and found it very interesting, but having them come to the back door to get them is not the same as offering mealworms free choice. What would happen if you put all the mealworms out under their feeding station?

I doubt I can find any studies on free choice feeding of such things as mealworms, BOSS or berries. They all seemed to be based on commercial farmers lowering food costs while getting the same output. I'd do an experiment myself except I don't feel like spending the kind of money that would be necessary to carry it out.

I don't even have a dog in this fight one way or another because my chickens all get and will continue to get pellets and whatever they can scrounge up out of the pasture. I would consider feeding them something else if it was just as healthy and affordable, but I have yet to see an option that is.

 

[Perris]

I did see your post about the mealworms and found it very interesting, but having them come to the back door to get them is not the same as offering mealworms free choice. What would happen if you put all the mealworms out under their feeding station?

Since they are available to any who come to the back door any day, I really do not see it is different; it is not a seasonal, temporary treat. And birds that may come every day for a few days then stop. In addition, when I move on the beetles in the mealworm farm, I put out the drawer that I have most recently been harvesting for the chickens to glean before I wash it and refill with bran. After the initial scrum, the top hen gets it to herself, until she decides she's had enough, and jumps out, whereupon the next goes in, and so on till there's nothing left to interest anyone. And they all tuck into a tea of grain, peas etc before bed.

I doubt I can find any studies on free choice feeding of such things as mealworms, BOSS or berries.

I didn't ask for that. I said

You keep making these comparisons between chickens and people Geena. Find me a single research paper that supports this idea of yours.

'this idea' being that

Valuable if they are only going to be offered foodstuffs that are equally palatable and healthy. Otherwise IMO not so much.
To me it's like saying if you offered humans only grilled chicken, vegetables, greens and vitamins they would be likely to select a healthy diet. Make apple pie with vanilla ice cream one of the selections and see what happens, LOL

Lines 1-2 chickens; lines 3-5 people. 'To me it's like saying' = comparison for the purpose of explanation.

I don't need a research paper in regards to humans, I just have to look around while I'm at Walmart.

How very scientific.

This illustrates exactly how these sorts of discussions get so far off track, because often certain pieces of information are cherry picked while other equally valid pieces of information are completed discarded because they don't fit the narrative.

Indeed.

You are welcome to keep feeding your birds concentrated feed in the form of pellets or mash or whatever. But you should recognize that concentrates are specifically designed to make birds overeat, so that they will lay more eggs in a shorter time than they otherwise would, and therefore that it is a mistake to generalize from what your birds do to others who do not eat concentrates.

 

[saysfaa]

".. Food selection can be very precise: it has been shown that the fowl has specific appetites for such essential elements as calcium (Hughes and Wood-Gush, 1971a), phosphorus (Holcombe etal. 1976a) and zinc (Hughes and Dewar, 1971), for vitamins such as thiamine (Hughes and Wood-Gush, 1971b), and for protein (Holcombe et al. 1976b). The central thesis, that fowls possess an effective self-selection mechanism, is not in dispute. What is at issue is the control system underlying the selection, whether it applies to all theindividual components of adiet, and whether or not it offers apractical means of formulating diets for choice of feeding regimes with advantages over the feeding of complete diets. Choice feeding was a recognized method in the past (Winter and Funk, 195 l), before knowledge regarding formulation of complete diets had reached its present high standard...."

Source

Unfortunately, I can't access the entire paper. Later, I will try to sift through his sources and those listed as using thos paper for a source.

Edit to add
The source is

The principles underlying choice feeding behaviour in fowls—with special reference to production experiments​

BO Hughes
World's Poultry Science Journal 40 (2), 141-150, 1984

 

[Shadrach]

I've discovered one reason why Henry may do it - gives him a bit of va-voom!
'Access to pasture ... improves rooster sperm quality' Poultry Science 2018
http://dx.doi.org/10.3382/ps/pey299

At Henry's age he could do with all the va=voom he can get.