new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[BDutch]

Your last point is principled, and it's a good principle. But I'm not sure I see the difference when commercial feed is made of grain that could have been eaten by people (it is not just second grade stuff that goes into animal feed; see e.g. https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

Be aware that when you select out the fat, you're also selecting out the fat-soluble vitamins. That's vitamins A, D, E and K. D is necessary for processing calcium. Apparently inadequate calcium is a frequent theme on BYC. In some cases it may be inadequate vitamin D rather than calcium that is actually the problem, especially for birds that don't get out in the sunlight.

I'm glad you give your birds your food waste. It is currently illegal here thanks to a bureaucratic over-reaction to the stupid practices of a handful of people, but it's changing. There's a lot of useful resources here https://www.fao.org/nutrition/food waste

Feeding your own BYC chickens food waste is not prohibited. Only commercial farmers / chicken owners who sell eggs have to obey strict rules.

Since last year there is even a few factories that make layer feed from overproduction of veggies and leftovers not sold by backeries. But a new problem occured in this waist feed. They found lots of plastic particles in it. I tried one bag last year. But the chickens didn’t like it af all. They preferred the organic layer over the recycled feed.

https://www.evmi.nl/nieuws/circulair-kippenvoer-gemaakt-van-reststromen-uit-voedingsindustrie

https://www.nutriworm.eu/products/circulaire-legkorrel-met-insecten-voor-kippen

 

[3KillerBs]

But the chickens didn’t like it af all. They preferred the organic layer over the recycled feed.

How do you judge whether your birds "like" a feed?

My experience is that when I have to get an emergency bag of cheap, 16% layer for reasons of availability or access the birds eat more of that feed than they do of their normal 18-22% All-Flock (my local farm store's parent chain has changed brands and types available several times over the past year so I can't always get what I'd prefer).

I believe that they are eating more of the layer in order to make up for the lesser quality of the nutrition rather than because they "like" it.

 

[Perris]

But a new problem occured in this waist feed. They found lots of plastic particles in it.

this has been in the news here since 2018. You are not alone:
https://www.plasticsoupfoundation.o...and-pig-meat-blood-and-milk-contains-plastic/

 

[Perris]

How do you judge whether your birds "like" a feed?

My experience is that when I have to get an emergency bag of cheap, 16% layer for reasons of availability or access the birds eat more of that feed than they do of their normal 18-22% All-Flock (my local farm store's parent chain has changed brands and types available several times over the past year so I can't always get what I'd prefer).

I believe that they are eating more of the layer in order to make up for the lesser quality of the nutrition rather than because they "like" it.

There are a number of studies which have shown that, sometimes digging in to try to find out what exactly is going on.

You might find this interesting:
"A foraging animal may encounter many food items of varying nutritional and toxic qualities which produce quite different effects when they are ingested. Therefore, an ability to associate the sensory properties of food items with their post-ingestive effects is of primary importance. Reviewing the role of conditioning in behavioural nutrition, Provenza & Cincotta (1993) indicated that animals learn to increase their intake of foods or non-nutritive flavoured water that are paired with: (i) calories (Mehiel & Bolles, 1984; Booth, 1985; Gibson & Booth, 1989; Ackroff et al. 1993), (ii) recovery from nutritional deficiencies (Garcia et al. 1967; Zahorik et al. 1974; Baker et al. 1987; Baker & Booth, 1989), and (iii) recovery from postingestive distress (Green & Garcia, 1971). Similarly, animals learn to decrease their intake of foods or non-nutritive flavours that are paired with: (i) toxins (Olsen & Ralphs, 1986; Garcia, 1989), (ii) abdominal discomfort (Pelchat & Rozin, 1982; Garcia, 1989), and (iii) nausea (Coil et al. 1978; Provenza et al. 1994). Such food preferences and aversions provide clear evidence of the role of conditioning in shaping the long term food choice and intake of animals and arise, as a consequence of feedback, through a learned association between the sensory properties of the food and its postingestive effects. However, such learning paradigms imply that animals eat discrete meals in terms of their composition (i.e. they don’t ‘mix’ different food items), which is clearly not always the case. To clarify this area Provenza & Cincotta (1993) suggested that animals cautiously include novel food items in their diet. The corollary is that if the consequences of such a food choice is positive the new food may be eaten in increasing amounts, and if they are not then the animal will try an alternative choice. Such choices are retained (as they involve an element of safety) until a significant change in the animal’s internal state occurs to force it to take action by modifying its feeding behaviour (Kyriazakis, 1997)."
Food choice and intake: towards a unifying framework of learning and feeding motivation, Nutrition Research Reviews (1998), 11, 2543 p.30

 

[Shadrach]

Feeding your own BYC chickens food waste is not prohibited.

Yes it is in the UK.

 

[3KillerBs]

There are a number of studies which have shown that, sometimes digging in to try to find out what exactly is going on.

You might find this interesting:
"A foraging animal may encounter many food items of varying nutritional and toxic qualities which produce quite different effects when they are ingested. Therefore, an ability to associate the sensory properties of food items with their post-ingestive effects is of primary importance. Reviewing the role of conditioning in behavioural nutrition, Provenza & Cincotta (1993) indicated that animals learn to increase their intake of foods or non-nutritive flavoured water that are paired with: (i) calories (Mehiel & Bolles, 1984; Booth, 1985; Gibson & Booth, 1989; Ackroff et al. 1993), (ii) recovery from nutritional deficiencies (Garcia et al. 1967; Zahorik et al. 1974; Baker et al. 1987; Baker & Booth, 1989), and (iii) recovery from postingestive distress (Green & Garcia, 1971). Similarly, animals learn to decrease their intake of foods or non-nutritive flavours that are paired with: (i) toxins (Olsen & Ralphs, 1986; Garcia, 1989), (ii) abdominal discomfort (Pelchat & Rozin, 1982; Garcia, 1989), and (iii) nausea (Coil et al. 1978; Provenza et al. 1994). Such food preferences and aversions provide clear evidence of the role of conditioning in shaping the long term food choice and intake of animals and arise, as a consequence of feedback, through a learned association between the sensory properties of the food and its postingestive effects. However, such learning paradigms imply that animals eat discrete meals in terms of their composition (i.e. they don’t ‘mix’ different food items), which is clearly not always the case. To clarify this area Provenza & Cincotta (1993) suggested that animals cautiously include novel food items in their diet. The corollary is that if the consequences of such a food choice is positive the new food may be eaten in increasing amounts, and if they are not then the animal will try an alternative choice. Such choices are retained (as they involve an element of safety) until a significant change in the animal’s internal state occurs to force it to take action by modifying its feeding behaviour (Kyriazakis, 1997)."
Food choice and intake: towards a unifying framework of learning and feeding motivation, Nutrition Research Reviews (1998), 11, 2543 p.30

That is indeed interesting.

I should note that with my flock the various feeds were all either pellet or crumble and the stopgap feed wasn't necessarily one of them and the normal feed the other.

I switch between the two forms regularly because while I prefer to feed pellet I often have chicks too young for pellets and this past year's supply issues have made it impossible to be picky about it if I'd wanted to.

 

[Krugerrand]

Yes it is in the UK.

Can you feed waste food to meal worms and then feed them the meal worms?

 

[Shadrach]

Can you feed waste food to meal worms and then feed them the meal worms?

Apparently not if one takes the guidance at face value. I should point out that I have never heard of a backyard chicken keeper being prosecuted for feeding scraps, or meal worms.

 

[Geena]

What I've found interesting, yet again, is that the belief one must feed commercial feed because it is the best option for production and health has a number of detractors with evidence to back their views up.

The old school chicken feed recipes while interesting don't have the advantage of the knowledge regarding diet we have now.

I don't think most people believe you must feed commercial feed. I'd think it's more that a lot of people don't want to or can't spend the time, effort and money involved in feeding a specialized diet. Some people just don't have time for all that, they've got full time jobs, children at home and/or lots of different types of fowl and animals to feed. They like the assurance a formulated feed provides in making sure their chickens get everything they need. It seems like a lot people do feed extras, scraps and treats in addition to pellets, so they do understand that fresh food is good for them as well.

 

[Geena]

That is indeed interesting.

I should note that with my flock the various feeds were all either pellet or crumble and the stopgap feed wasn't necessarily one of them and the normal feed the other.

I switch between the two forms regularly because while I prefer to feed pellet I often have chicks too young for pellets and this past year's supply issues have made it impossible to be picky about it if I'd wanted to.

I've been doing the same balancing act as you in regard to the SS/Nutrena feeds. One good thing is that the chickens have learned to eat whatever I give them, they don't turn their beaks up at anything that is different now.
Last time I was in SS I noticed that the only Sporting bird developer they have now is in Nutrena bags and medicated.