new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Perris]

Certainly better quality eggs, but it could be after so many generations of selective breeding the commercial layers have evolved to do better on the commercial feed, as much as the diet has been tailored specifically for them.

commercial feed is changing all the time, and today's product is a world away from that of say the 1960s, while the selective breeding (not evolution) has focussed on getting more eggs per bird.

 

[NatJ]

commercial feed is changing all the time, and today's product is a world away from that of say the 1960s, while the selective breeding (not evolution) has focussed on getting more eggs per bird.

They have selected for more eggs per bird *on the diet they provide*

In practice, that means they are selecting for birds that do well on whichever diet is being fed at the time. There is no way to select for birds that do well on another diet, except by feeding them that other diet.

So the selection for diet should be mostly keeping pace with the changes in the diet over the years.

 

[Perris]

They have selected for more eggs per bird *on the diet they provide*

In practice, that means they are selecting for birds that do well on whichever diet is being fed at the time. There is no way to select for birds that do well on another diet, except by feeding them that other diet.

So the selection for diet should be mostly keeping pace with the changes in the diet over the years.

except that commercial breeding layer and broiler birds aren't fed the same diet as the layers and broilers that hatch from their eggs - they get a better diet and the latter spend a lot of their lives on restrictive feeding programs, so are always hungry. I thought you'd know that.

I made a thread on it but few wanted to know it, apparently
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/modern-broiler-stock.1556226/

 

[Geena]

commercial feed is changing all the time, and today's product is a world away from that of say the 1960s, while the selective breeding (not evolution) has focussed on getting more eggs per bird.

Animals DO evolve over time to suit the diet that is available to them.
Although egg production is no doubt the main focus of their selective breeding, I'm sure there are many other things that are taken into consideration as well, such as vitality and ability to deal with the circumstances under which they are kept, which would include a commercial diet. Sick, stressed and dead birds are not good for the bottom line

 

[NatJ]

except that commercial breeding layer and broiler birds aren't fed the same diet as the layers and broilers that hatch from their eggs - they get a better diet and the latter spend a lot of their lives on restrictive feeding programs, so are always hungry. I thought you'd know that.

I made a thread on it but few wanted to know it, apparently
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/modern-broiler-stock.1556226/

I knew about the broilers, which are the ones addressed in that thread. I didn't consider them relevant to the point about commercial layers.

I assumed that the breeder stock for layers would be fed pretty much the same diet the production layers are fed-- in each case, you want hens that lay lots of eggs, regardless of whether you are hatching the eggs or selling them for consumption. IF the layer breeder stock is getting a better diet, then yes they would be selected for laying on that diet, not on the usual production diet.

 

[Ital]

you can control how much you put out of any particular food of course, if you're really worried about their ability to self-regulate.
And in the case of a sick bird who just needs to eat something/anything, I have a paper for zoo vets recommending letting them eat however many they want.

My situation is very different to yours in that I definitely do not have adequate pasture and the foods I’m providing will be mostly dried which makes a big difference to the percentages so it’ll be much easier for them to overdo one item over another, especially given a constant unlimited supply which isn’t something even the best pasture would provide.

If I have to start limiting items I’ll consider it a failure and go back to the balanced recipe I had planned because with less items available I suspect it’ll just become even more difficult for them to balance.

It’ll probably still be better than pellets with the diversity and quality of ingredients I’ve included but the same issues with varying requirements will remain so I’m really hoping they can figure it out.

If it works it’ll be a simple model anyone can follow regardless of the amount of forage available or requirement of the birds, and could even be cheaper if they’re not dispersing most of the ingredients amongst the shavings to find whatever it is they need.

The plan is to divide the ingredients into the same number of parts I had planned for a balanced recipe, so three bowls of items that were to be three parts of the recipe, one bowl of anything that was intended to be one part ect. The initial total will be balanced but then added to and recorded as it’s consumed.

This way I’ll hopefully find out if they’re making good choices before they get ill and if they’re just making random selections (eating equal portions from each bowl) it should work out about right while they’re learning.

Cautiously optimistic about it, not overly confident it’ll work but seems worth attempting just to know if it’s possible/preferable.

 

[Perris]

none of this @Geena @NatJ amounts to much except to explain why amateur breeders produce so many chicks with curled toes, splayed legs, and other deformities. Professional hatcheries wouldn't be in business if they operated on the same assumptions.

If it's not in the egg, it's not in the chick. Shops sell breeder rations for consumers who understand this.

And it's even on Wikipedia!
https://wikieducator.org/Layer_and_breeder_feeds

edited to add: and since it obviously isn't common knowledge, here's a handy summary of what happens to breeder layers in a professional establishment
http://www.agritech.tnau.ac.in/expert_system/poultry/Breeder Management.html including explicitly
"Feeding

• The feeds given to layer parents will be more or less similar to that of commercial layers in respect of major nutrients.
• But the breeder feeds, especially the breeder hen feed is enriched with all micronutrients like trace minerals and vitamins in order to obtain high rates of fertility and hatchability besides peak egg production."

 

[Perris]

the diet

you write as if they were all the same. Look at the labels. Massive variation - if you can tell what actually is in the bag and you don't get just the nutrient profile. And that's just today. Over 'evolutionary time' the statement is simply meaningless.

You throw out ideas and assumptions like confetti, often acknowledging that you don't really know anything about it, and on the surface they may look reasonable and you manage to attract some likes. But I'm just gonna let them float past henceforth because you haven't apparently learnt anything from our exchanges to date so I'll not bother trying with you anymore. And I can't help noticing your avatar is a dog, not a chicken.

 

[Perris]

the foods I’m providing will be mostly dried

you do know you need to soak if not ferment a lot of dried foods to remove some or all of the anti-digestive chemicals the plant puts into them to try to protect its seed and help it survive even if eaten, yes?

 

[Geena]

you write as if they were all the same. Look at the labels. Massive variation - if you can tell what actually is in the bag and you don't get just the nutrient profile. And that's just today. Over 'evolutionary time' the statement is simply meaningless.

You throw out ideas and assumptions like confetti, often acknowledging that you don't really know anything about it, and on the surface they may look reasonable and you manage to attract some likes. But I'm just gonna let them float past henceforth because you haven't apparently learnt anything from our exchanges to date so I'll not bother trying with you anymore. And I can't help noticing your avatar is a dog, not a chicken.

Did someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?

I very seldom discuss anything that I don't already know something about. Please show me where I often acknowledge that I don't know anything about what I'm saying.

I'm just sharing my thoughts on a topic that was brought up (by you) is there something wrong with that??

ETA - What I have learned from our exchanges is that you have a very low tolerance for any facts or opinions that are not completely in line with what you believe to be true.