new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[U_Stormcrow]

I spent some time considering a similar base mix for myself, but using peas instead of lupin. I concluded it was going to be short on amino acids. I'd love for someone to prove it otherwise, but it seems virtually impossible to provide all the right amino acids without an animal protein. For example, Purina FR, which has soybeans as the #2 ingredient, still adds supplemental methionine and lysine.

Now if your free range is chock full of insects, lizards or other critters your chickens can eat, they might be able to make up the difference. Otherwise, I think like the OP, you will need to give them some type of animal protein on a regular basis.

Yes, the AA profile is off. Based on published averages, it has plenty of Lysine, and plenty of Threonine, will hit the recommends for almost every bird at every age. It has barely adequate amounts of Tryptophan. Subpar in Methionine, just as we would expect (less than 0.25%) - Lupins have very low levels of Met relative to the other critical AAs Its also very high in fiber - which doesn't benefit chickens nearly so much as it benefits us, and fat. In terms of energy content, its highly variable because of variations in digestibility.

https://www.allaboutfeed.net/all-ab...tritional-value-of-yellow-lupin-for-broilers/

see also
https://www.researchgate.net/public...acid_digestibility_and_production_performance

https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_intestinal_morphology_of_broiler_chickens

etc. Basically, the more lupins you include, the more their particular fiber interferes with digestibility of pretty much everything. Yet another example of why looking at CP alone is insufficient.

That said, @EddieSalita is off to a good start. I have confidence he will - eventually - get this dialed in, precisely because he has an open mind and is crowdsourcing this effort to learn things he doesn't know, and might not discover on his own.

 

[EddieSalita]

Thanks for the encouragement stormcrow.

I am subpar on met..... 0.25%.... what do I need to be?
It seems from my reading it's a very hard thing to provide via non synthetic or animal sources. I've no problem with animal sources. Hoping to avoid synthetic.
Short of buying expensive supplements. I'm not sure how to make that up. Does it have to specifically be met? Or can it be another suflur containing amino?

I attached the amino breakdown of dried moringa leaf. It's 0.43 met, but much better in cysteine at 2.15.
But it's not like I can get that much dried moringa leaf into the birds each day. So that may not be practical.

Edit: I found an interesting article on amino acid synthesis in chickens. Interesting because in humans some of the B vitamins can be metabolised in various ways to provide sulfur.

"Tyrosine and cysteine can replace up to 50% of phenylalanine and methionine in the diets of chickens, respectively, depending on age and dietary nutrient composition"

Maybe adding moringa does have some value?

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-54462-1_7

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks for the encouragement stormcrow.

I am subpar on met..... 0.25%.... what do I need to be?
It seems from my reading it's a very hard thing to provide via non synthetic or animal sources. I've no problem with animal sources. Hoping to avoid synthetic.
Short of buying expensive supplements. I'm not sure how to make that up. Does it have to specifically be met? Or can it be another suflur containing amino?

I attached the amino breakdown of dried moringa leaf. It's 0.43 met, but much better in cysteine at 2.15.
But it's not like I can get that much dried moringa leaf into the birds each day. So that may not be practical.

Edit: I found an interesting article on amino acid synthesis in chickens.

"Tyrosine and cysteine can replace up to 50% of phenylalanine and methionine in the diets of chickens, respectively, depending on age and dietary nutrient composition"

Maybe adding moringa does have some value?

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-54462-1_7

they have it backwards. MET can be converted by the chicken innto homocysteine, which can then be converted into cysteine. But Cysteine can't be converted back into Met. In other words, deficiencies in Cysteine levels require higher Met amounts in the diet to compensate.

Therefore, having adequate levels of Cys reduces effective Met needs. What's the problem? Needed levels of Cys in poultry diets aren't well published, don't appear on labels, and requires math on your part.

The minimum recommended level for Met is .3 for an adult layer. Its higher for essentially everything else, and is very important to hatchlings, adolescents, basically anything still growing. Even for adult layers, the new recommends for highly productiove adult layers (i.e, production reds, some of the leghorn strains) are comming out 0.35 to 0.40. Admittedly, in studies generally not looking at particular Cysteine levels.

 

[EddieSalita]

they have it backwards. MET can be converted by the chicken innto homocysteine, which can then be converted into cysteine. But Cysteine can't be converted back into Met. In other words, deficiencies in Cysteine levels require higher Met amounts in the diet to compensate.

Therefore, having adequate levels of Cys reduces effective Met needs. What's the problem? Needed levels of Cys in poultry diets aren't well published, don't appear on labels, and requires math on your part.

The minimum recommended level for Met is .3 for an adult layer. Its higher for essentially everything else, and is very important to hatchlings, adolescents, basically anything still growing. Even for adult layers, the new recommends for highly productiove adult layers (i.e, production reds, some of the leghorn strains) are comming out 0.35 to 0.40. Admittedly, in studies generally not looking at particular Cysteine levels.

OK cool. It's a problem I don't think I can solve cheaply without synthetic methionine. Would you agree?

I also notice that since having cracked the micronised lupins the husk is separated from the kernel. Which is shown in the pics. I use a pvc feeder to feed this. So I can easily see what they are and aren't eating. The husk is quite distinctive. They are leaving the larger pieces of that behind. Interesting considering what you said about fibre.

I am leaving the feeder with the chick crumble in the run. I am giving approx 60g dry weight per bird per day. All of which they are eating minus the big bits of husk they leave behind. So I will continue for now on the assumption they can free choose to meet their needs.

Being that there are 5 pullets in there, and they are hatchery production cinnamon browns I am concerned about the low levels of Met.
I need help with the math though. If I were to add met how much would I add to bring it up to .4?
Met is $35 per kg. Maybe it won't add much to the overall cost?

Found this also:
https://attra.ncat.org/publication/organic-poultry-production-providing-adequate-methionine/

Which lists actual values of cys and met for different types of birds. Including fast and slow growing broilers and different types of layers
I take on board that cysteine levels aren't well established, but given that adequate levels of cys reduces met needs, should I be worrying too much?

I also found an accurate analysis of the specific variety of sweet lupin grown in Australia. Pic attached. This in for non micronised afaict. Can anyone tell me what cyst-meth is?

Pdf link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ChAWegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3pwUpGJCQCSk-m--cglr8o

 

[MaryJanet]

It's a problem I don't think I can solve cheaply without synthetic methionine. Would you agree?

I don't have expertise on nutrition to contribute, but the vet I take the hens to recommends cottage cheese for methionine. I believe it carries other amino acids too. It's added to evening mash to benefit a hen who had hepatic lipidosis.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

They simply added the Cystiene level 0.42 to the Methionine level of 0.20.

A lot of older stuff lists only SAAs - Sulphur containing Amino Acids - because until about 4 decades ago, you couldn't measure Met levels directly, and when we could, we couldn't do it at reasonable cost - so that gives some backwards compatibility.

Easiset sources of Met are animal proteins - apart from the ubiquitous fish meal, you might also be able to find animal byproducts of value - like Porcine Blood Meal. About 2/3 Kg oiof a theoretically average blood meal per 100 Kg of feed. That will bring a lot of Lys, Thre, and a good amount of Tryp as well. Plus a bunch of trace minerals, and a non-phytate phosphorus source.

or yes, you can do it synthetically.

Currently, you have a projected Met level of 0.24., or 2.4 g/Kg. If you make 100Kg of feed, that's 240g of Met among the whole of the feed. You want at least 300 - just 60g more. So a 1kg package of Met is good for 16 100Kg batches. At $35/Kg, you are adding about $2.20/100Kg to your costs, roughly $02./lb

and yes, geting sufficient Met levels is why US branded "Organic" feeds are allowed to contain synthetic Met - because it would be almost impossible (ok, merely expensive and difficult) to meet the birds' dietary needs otherwise.

If I were in your situation, and assuming I understand your goals, I'd look tor a feed grade blood meal first, or a "nutribalancer type" pre-mix with synthetic Met included, try and (ahem) kill a few birds with that stone.

 

[EddieSalita]

They simply added the Cystiene level 0.42 to the Methionine level of 0.20.

A lot of older stuff lists only SAAs - Sulphur containing Amino Acids - because until about 4 decades ago, you couldn't measure Met levels directly, and when we could, we couldn't do it at reasonable cost - so that gives some backwards compatibility.

Easiset sources of Met are animal proteins - apart from the ubiquitous fish meal, you might also be able to find animal byproducts of value - like Porcine Blood Meal. About 2/3 Kg oiof a theoretically average blood meal per 100 Kg of feed. That will bring a lot of Lys, Thre, and a good amount of Tryp as well. Plus a bunch of trace minerals, and a non-phytate phosphorus source.

or yes, you can do it synthetically.

Currently, you have a projected Met level of 0.24., or 2.4 g/Kg. If you make 100Kg of feed, that's 240g of Met among the whole of the feed. You want at least 300 - just 60g more. So a 1kg package of Met is good for 16 100Kg batches. At $35/Kg, you are adding about $2.20/100Kg to your costs, roughly $02./lb

and yes, geting sufficient Met levels is why US branded "Organic" feeds are allowed to contain synthetic Met - because it would be almost impossible (ok, merely expensive and difficult) to meet the birds' dietary needs otherwise.

If I were in your situation, and assuming I understand your goals, I'd look tor a feed grade blood meal first, or a "nutribalancer type" pre-mix with synthetic Met included, try and (ahem) kill a few birds with that stone.

OK thanks a lot for that. I believe you do understand my goals. Which is just to have confidence that the feed I'm providing meets at least healthy minimum requirements. Then for foraging the chickens do is just cream on top.

Specific pre mix Supplements and food grade blood meal seem a little difficult to come across. The Australian consumer market isn't geared for this. Just not many customers I guess. Most of this from what can tell so far is in wholsale/primary producers markets and wholesale. Which I cannot acess.

I can access methionine in 1kg lots cheaply. It's used by greyhound breeders, so is available at vet supply places.

I can however get vitamin/mineral/amino pre mixes for use in animal drinking water. So mixing that into moist drained fermented grain may be an option. I don't want to be making up special drinking water all the time.

Maybe this is getting away from the essence of the thread a bit however. Wholesome home made feed without sweat, tears or calculator. I'm certainly managing to stick to the no deep pockets part so far. I guess we can't know if it's adequate without doing some calculations initially, then observing. Perris makes liberal use of dairy and other animal sources. I haven't allow3d for that in my recipe. It shows in lack of Met and bare minimums in some other aminos.

As far as animal sources go, I don't go fishing much. Most meat and dairy isn't cheap anymore. So I'm not so keen on those sources. What I do have access to for cheap (aka free) is kangaroo meat. I could only find one source of data for that. Pic below. Not confident in my math. But to make up 60g in 100kg of feed I figure I would need to be feeding each chicken 5-10 grams of dried kangaroo meat per day. Feasible but a bit of effort involved. It's harvested for the dog anyway. So not really that much.

Another thing I wanted to investigate was the amino content of these toads which they eat every day. While not specific to the species I have, frogs legs data is available. Pic below. I do also have a dam full of tadpoles and small fish. Maybe I should investigate that as a treat. Again, not really calculable. So isn't specifically contributing to my goal.

For the time being I will add some synthetic Met. It's easy and cheap to get. At least then I know the younger birds especially aren't being deliberately shorted in their ration.

 

[Perris]

Maybe this is getting away from the essence of the thread a bit however.

yes it is

Wholesome home made feed without sweat, tears or calculator.

that's my article, not this thread per se.

Just a reminder to anyone reading that 'meals' are homogenised processed foods with short shelf lives whose contents the user has to take on trust.

 

[Perris]

coming back on track, an article published a few days ago that doesn't pussy-foot around with its anti-UPF message
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tyranny-ultra-processed-food-van-tulleken
The author is a qualified medical doctor, btw.

 

[EddieSalita]

coming back on track, an article published a few days ago that doesn't pussy-foot around with its anti-UPF message
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tyranny-ultra-processed-food-van-tulleken
The author is a qualified medical doctor, btw.

I'm picking up what you're putting down Perris. Processed food has become somewhat of a scourge in many ways. It's a big reason why I live where and how I do. I'm done with the rat race.
We've kinda backed ourselves into a corner to a degree specifically regarding the breeding of high production hens. Which I have 15 of.
I guess that's something of a fear in going this way with the feed. I'd rather not make a mistake and see signs of deficiency before needing to adjust what I'm doing. I want them to be the happiest, healthiest and most productive they can be as much as possible.
I just need to put in more effort to obtaining animal protein sources than I initially thought. Or accept that I need to supplement or stay with commercial feed. Those are my 3 options at this point I think.