new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[BDutch]

Personally, I'm not a fan of using our tax code to manipulate peoples behaviors. Think of your least favorite politician ... do you want that person dictating your decisions by controlling taxes?

I posted this link in post #67
https://dlg.usg.edu/record/dlg_ggpd_i-ga-ba400-b-pp1-bf2-b32-s27?canvas=0&x=1195&y=739&w=3349

Over 70 years ago lobbyists pressing the government to push margarine over butter. I see the problem is that money to the government returns greater profits. Different people have different solutions to that. I would hazard that it's been getting worse over those 70 years, which should help guide people in what works and what doesn't.

You named the problem we have with politicians. But a real democracy with honest politicians could solve a lot of problems, that are created by dishonourable politicians and industries with lobbyists.
Savvie?

 

[Morrigan]

The HFLS (fatty liver syndrome) that plagues our chickens is caused by their diet of commercial ultra processed feed, not by real foods given as so-called 'treats' or otherwise. From the same piece, earlier, "traditional diets are healthy all over the world, whether they are high in vegetables, fruit, meat, fish or dairy – they are based on whole foods."

I believe that a chicken fed an appropriately diverse, balanced diet of whole, real foods will be healthier than a chicken raised on commercial, processed food. I've read your article, and I think the way you feed your chickens is awesome.

The trouble is, that doing so is difficult and expensive for many, particularly those that do not have access to safe, nutritionally suitable free range. Even for those, like myself, who try to thoughtfully supplement a portion of my flocks' diet with real food, commercial feed is close to a necessity.

At the risk of sounding defensive, I'm not sure it's fair to blame fatty liver disease in chickens on commercial feed, provided that the feed is fresh and high quality. Unlike the UPFs typically given to children -- candy, soda, chips, etc. -- commercial feed is at least an attempt to provide a complete, nutritionally diet to a chickens.

 

[Perris]

I'm not sure it's fair to blame fatty liver disease in chickens on commercial feed, provided that the feed is fresh and high quality. Unlike the UPFs typically given to children -- candy, soda, chips, etc. -- commercial feed is at least an attempt to provide a complete, nutritionally diet to a chickens.

My source is the MSD veterinary manual: https://www.msdvetmanual.com/poultr...e/fatty-liver-hemorrhagic-syndrome-in-poultry

 

[Krugerrand]

I believe that a chicken fed an appropriately diverse, balanced diet of whole, real foods will be healthier than a chicken raised on commercial, processed food. I've read your article, and I think the way you feed your chickens is awesome.

The trouble is, that doing so is difficult and expensive for many, particularly those that do not have access to safe, nutritionally suitable free range. Even for those, like myself, who try to thoughtfully supplement a portion of my flocks' diet with real food, commercial feed is close to a necessity.

At the risk of sounding defensive, I'm not sure it's fair to blame fatty liver disease in chickens on commercial feed, provided that the feed is fresh and high quality. Unlike the UPFs typically given to children -- candy, soda, chips, etc. -- commercial feed is at least an attempt to provide a complete, nutritionally diet to a chickens.

UPF's aren't just candy soda and chips:

• Frozen meals
• Soft drinks
• Hot dogs
• Deli meat
• Fast food
• Packaged cookies
• Cakes
• Salty snacks
• Plant-based milks
• Jarred sauces
• Ice cream,
• ham
• sausages
• mass-produced bread
• breakfast cereals
• fruit-flavoured yogurts
• instant soups
• some alcoholic drinks including whisky, gin, and rum
• Protein and muesli bars and balls
• margarine

 

[Sally PB]

What would you say is the difference between processed foods, and ultra processed foods?

I make my own peanut butter out of roasted peanuts by using a food processor. They are the only ingredient, unless I add cinnamon or some raw (local) honey.

 

[Krugerrand]

What would you say is the difference between processed foods, and ultra processed foods?

I make my own peanut butter out of roasted peanuts by using a food processor. They are the only ingredient, unless I add cinnamon or some raw (local) honey.

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/ultra-processed-foods

What is ultra-processed food?​

The term ‘ultra-processed foods’ comes from the NOVA food classification system, which was developed by researchers at the University of São Paulo, Brazil.

The system places food into four categories based on how much they have been processed during their production:

1. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods: This includes produce such as fruit, vegetables, milk, fish, pulses, eggs, nuts and seeds that have no added ingredients and have been little altered from their natural state.
2. Processed ingredients: This includes foods that are added to other foods rather than eaten by themselves, such as salt, sugar and oils.
3. Processed foods: These are foods that are made by combining foods from groups 1 and 2, which are altered in a way that home cooks could do themselves. They include foods such as jam, pickles, tinned fruit and vegetables, homemade breads and cheeses.
4. Ultra-processed foods: Ultra-processed foods typically have five or more ingredients. They tend to include many additives and ingredients that are not typically used in home cooking, such as preservatives, emulsifiers, sweeteners, and artificial colours and flavours. These foods generally have a long shelf life.

 

[Morrigan]

My source is the MSD veterinary manual: https://www.msdvetmanual.com/poultr...e/fatty-liver-hemorrhagic-syndrome-in-poultry

Thanks for providing the link. Two things struck me:

"Fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome is associated with a surfeit of energy intake, regardless of the source, in birds whose exercise is limited. Additionally, this condition is observed primarily in females. With the initiation of egg production, the estrogen levels in the serum increase, as does the fat content in the liver. FLHS can be induced experimentally in layers and even male birds by administration of estrogen. This suggests that FLHS occurs more frequently in high-producing birds that presumably are producing more estrogen from active ovaries."

Also:

"Experimentally, most attempts to prevent or treat the condition have been made through dietary modification. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial. Presumably such modification means the liver needs to synthesize less fat for yolk. Replacement of corn with other cereals, such as wheat and barley, is often beneficial."

I don't read this to mean that commercial feed causes FLSH. But, I also don't read this to mean that you can prevent FLSH by exclusively giving commercial feed. Hence I don't think it's true that giving "treats" is always the cause of FLSH.

I did find interesting that one of the recommendations to combat this disease was to replace some of the carbs with fat. So often fat is named as culprit in FLSH and people are warned against too many sunflower seeds and mealworms. I've often questioned this line of thinking, and its interesting to see some research suggesting that supplement fat might be a good thing.

 

[Perris]

What would you say is the difference between processed foods, and ultra processed foods?

I make my own peanut butter out of roasted peanuts by using a food processor. They are the only ingredient, unless I add cinnamon or some raw (local) honey.

that takes us back to post #1 of this thread Sally. There's quite a lot of discussion of it in the early pages.
There's also the NOVA classification, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30744710/

 

[Folly's place]

It's not about adding fat to the diet, it's about substituting fat to reach dietary caloric needs instead of some of the carbohydrates.
Adding high fats to an already balanced diet isn't what's needed, because those added fats also add calories.
Mary

 

[Morrigan]

UPF's aren't just candy soda and chips:

• Frozen meals
• Soft drinks
• Hot dogs
• Deli meat
• Fast food
• Packaged cookies
• Cakes
• Salty snacks
• Plant-based milks
• Jarred sauces
• Ice cream,
• ham
• sausages
• mass-produced bread
• breakfast cereals
• fruit-flavoured yogurts
• instant soups
• some alcoholic drinks including whisky, gin, and rum
• Protein and muesli bars and balls
• margarine

Very true. What I meant was that there are many types of UPF for humans that are intrinsically grossly deficient in nutrition. A careless person randomly selecting from a bunch of inferior products is almost certainly not doing their diet any favors.

On the other hand chicken feed, although an UPF food, is at least intended to be a complete, nutritionally balanced diet. And there has been a fair amount of study and work by the poultry industry to try to achieve that objective. To be clear, I don't think bagged food is the very best thing one can feed chickens, and I don't feed it exclusively to my chickens. But, I don't think it's a wholly unreasonable thing to do, either.