new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[U_Stormcrow]

Depends on age, breed, purpose. In the case of dual purpose birds (barely studied), we have to make educated guesses.

In general, based on a 100g diet, a Met inclusion of 0.3% is the old recommend for an adult production hen under commercial condition in her prime production period (generally, first two adult lay cycles - something less than 2 years of age. From that, you can calculate about .3g of Met daily (so a bird consuming 150g of feed a day could meet that w/ a Met inclusion rate at 0.2%, etc).

More recent studies suggest somewhat higher rates of inclusion to maximize production, and their needs as adolescents/hatchlings are higher (as a rate of inclusion, because their rate of consumption is lower). That is, they eat less, and thus need a more nutritionally dense feed during their prime growth period.

If near peak production and near optimal health potential are less of a concern, hitting that target daily is commensurately less important. The more your bird looks and produces less like a meat bird or a production layer, (that is, the more your bird breed looks like a thin, infrequent layer of small eggs) the lower that need is likely to be (though again, its not studied). The older your bird is, the less critical that number is likely to be.

and in the case of "meat birds" like the Supermarket Frankenchicken, the Cx ("CornishX"), needs for Met and Lysine are both much higher to support those freakish rates of growth. Among other things, Met is key in connective tissues - skin, tendons, the digestive tract and Lysine is key to muscle mass, particularly breast muscle and similar. "Slow Broilers, Rangers, and similar have needs in similar range.

But those are also young birds (and as I said above, young birds need more nutrient dense feeds to support growth) - adult birds need only maintain (or maintain and make eggs).

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So much similarity between human and animal nutrition. I’m not well versed on the animal nutritional needs, but have done a lot of research on human nutrition.

One of the reasons how to feed chickens is among the best studied subjects on the planet is because its key to feeding large amount of humans AND because chickens are used as human analogs for health studies.

I also do better over the course of the day w/ protein first thing in the morning, not generic carbs. [but that's anecdote, not data]

 

[Shadrach]

I also do better over the course of the day w/ protein first thing in the morning, not generic carbs. [but that's anecdote, not data]

Likewise.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Exactly, and having that contribution to fat that isn't going anywhere fast particularly if the hen is contained doesn't seem a great idea to me.

Sure, but that's really an MKe consideration, not a protein consideration - except insofar as daily protein intake is a part of that formula (together with carbs and fat). Protein conversion to fat is also a highly inefficient process (generates a lot of heat) as compared to converting carbs to fat, or simply storing fat as fat.

Basically, there are lots of ways to get dietary energy - but there's only one way to get key AAs. There are no substitutes. If your feed is too high in MKE, pull some fat or grains out. If its too low in AAs, no amount of additional fat or grains will correct that without ballooning the MKe content - and a fat chicken is a health concern all its own.

 

[saysfaa]

I haven't noticed doing better with protein first thing. I have noticed such a difference if I get enough fat. This after a lot of years of trying to eat low fat.

 

[Shadrach]

Back to the hypothetical hen.
She only eats commercial feed which is available all day and night.
The feed she eats is easily processed and her biology tells her no need to store it because there is always food.
Because it travels through her digestive system at a higher rate than other foods she's likely to feel the need to eat more often over a 24 hour period.
Hens like people also eat out of boredom so she's likely to eat more than the 150 grams recommended by the feed producers.
Taking the what quantity of protein a hen needs a day at the studies estimated high end of say 15 grams, that's still a minimum of 12 grams that is either getting excreted or stored as fat. Even allowing for conversion and processing requirements that's still a lot of protein apparently going to waste when fed at 18%.
There is something wrong here, that's two good medium eggs worth of protein!

 

[Shadrach]

One of the reasons how to feed chickens is among the best studied subjects on the planet is because its key to feeding large amount of humans AND because chickens are used as human analogs for health studies.

I also do better over the course of the day w/ protein first thing in the morning, not generic carbs. [but that's anecdote, not data]

Btw, Bone broth fortified with hemp seed protein powder makes for a good start to the day if one wants quick and effective.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Btw, Bone broth fortified with hemp seed protein powder makes for a good start to the day if one wants quick and effective.

Sadly, and with apologies for the hijack, most of my days start w/ drugs. three cups of back coffee. Then I grumble till lunch.

0/10, do not recommend.

But thank you for the suggestion

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and to get back on track, since we are talking about fat and protein and energy in diets, I dug up this old study (pdf). It has problems. Too few birds, too short of study period, primarily. Doesn't address AA balance at all - which would probably explain some of the less obvious results - but at the time, several AAs couldn't be measured directly. and certainly not measured cheaply. We'll call that study suggestive, not conclusive. There are better studies (more birds, longer), but they don't try near so many possibilities simultaneously. Even so, an interesting read.

 

[Labsandchickens8]

and to get back on track, since we are talking about fat and protein and energy in diets, I dug up this old study (pdf). It has problems. Too few birds, too short of study period, primarily. Doesn't address AA balance at all - which would probably explain some of the less obvious results - but at the time, several AAs couldn't be measured directly. and certainly not measured cheaply. We'll call that study suggestive, not conclusive. There are better studies (more birds, longer), but they don't try near so many possibilities simultaneously. Even so, an interesting read.

Thank you so much for all the information! Maybe someday I'll feel like I'm feeding my chickens optimally for their health. So much still to consider