New Young Aggressive Rooster - Help?

[chammer70]

I apologize in advance for the long-windedness of this post and am grateful for any helpful input. I've browsed posts on here over the years, but just had to join to seek advice.
We've had chickens for about seven years now. We were naïve with our first sweet bunch and lost eight to a nighttime raccoon slaughter. Quickly remedied that after many tears. I never wanted a rooster but was talked into "trying" one when my husband's cousin ended up with two and couldn't keep them as they live in the city limits. We added him at about 10-12 weeks of age. The hens beat him up terribly and I was often rescuing him. He grew into an absolutely stunning giant white with black Ameraucana. He was the sweetest rooster ever; never challenged us or anyone we brought into their run. My now five-year-old son and I were often in there feeding them and digging worms and fresh dirt for them to dig. We have several acres and their run is very large, bigger than most yards here in WA State. We could pick him up and he wouldn't try to hurt us in any way. Not that he didn't try to avoid me when I went to grab him. We could handle the hens and he would hardly glance our way.
We added hens periodically and for the most part he treated them well. I blew off horror stories of mean roosters, thinking they are the exception.
Then a few months ago a bobcat found its way into the run and got away with a yearling buff. I saw him after the fact, which is how I know what took her. Then two days later, he took another. We put the chickens on shutdown and revamped the run. Made it not as large and heightened the fence as well as an extra layer that went outward. We thought we were successful as we had no further incidents for a couple of months. Then about a month ago, he came back; took another yearling buff (our old girls are smart and hide well and quickly) and beat the heck out of our sweet rooster Robot. We prayed for the best and hoping it was only shock, as there was no blood but massive feathers covering the run. Then the next day he was gurgling terribly and couldn't even hold his head up. My husband took him far away from the run and put him out of his misery. A few hours later one of our hens laid down where the rooster had been laying and died. She was completely unharmed or mauled by the bobcat. Poor girl. I cried for three days over the loss of the rooster. I still tear up over him.
So I had a bug to add a rooster. Thinking it would be a good thing since so many are unwanted. We are huge into animal rescue of any sort. Though at this point it was unnecessary since we were finally forced to cover the entire area in netting. (It is so large that we didn't think it would be possible but with some input and coaching we were able to do it.) So I looked on Craislist (of course) and located two roos. One that was the spitting image of our lost one and the one I, of course, was most drawn to for that reason, and another raised in the city and the woman was desperately trying to find a home for as she had reared what ended up being four roosters that she couldn't keep. I felt bad for her and agreed to take him. I stressed the importance of needing one that was as of yet nonaggressive. I believe now she was not honest with me. No surprise there, I guess. He's a Easter Egger, if that has any significance.
So we penned up our four adult hens separately but also within the large run. Our five young three month old hens were also in a separate run within the large one. We weren't sure where we were going to put him when we brought him home. Decided to just give him the large run so he would at least be in some contact with the hens. He immediately was aggressive towards us. He's supposedly about five months old, which I believe since he's no larger than our adult hens.
So this is what has transpired in the last week since his addition:
He attacks us and/or dances for us. We've been unsure what to do. It seems every post I read has different advice from cooking him to carrying him around to kicking him. We've opted for catching him and carrying him and/or following him around until he hides or seems to "submit."
He has attacked my five-year-old son so he is too scared to go in the coop anymore, which makes me really sad as we've spent so much time in there with the hens and our now deceased rooster since my son was two years old!
We tried to introduce the last of our yearling buffs, since she is the most laid back. He IMMEDIATELY tried to mount her. She was having nothing to do with it, so they fought. We broke it up and removed her again. She puffs up and tries to peck him through the separation fencing. We introduced the last of our sexlinks, who accepted him immediately, shockingly. I removed her when it became obvious he was not going to leave her alone. Have not introduced our two old, old Araucanas. Scared to. We let the five young ones out with him and he has tried to mount them, though rarely, and he shows them food and then rips their feather our on their heads when they come to the food. Today he attacked one when she came to my husband. Outta room. What to do, please? Are there any options? I'm considering separating HIM from them. Wondering if our prior rooster was so sweet because he was beat up so often by the hens when he was young?
Thank you to anyone who reads this drawn-out post.

 

[chooks4life]

Breed has nothing to do with anything except type. You can stuff all manner of different genes and traits into the same coverall or onesie that appearance is, if you get my meaning. It's supposed to also account for foraging ability, social traits, hardiness, disease resistance, broodiness or lack thereof, egg and flesh production too, etc, but that appears to be largely ignored by many who produce purebreds and sell them even though they don't uphold the traditional qualities of the breed they are derived from and supposed to represent.

All other traits like behavior are very flexible and vary widely from family line to family line within any breed or even any isolated strain of any breed; even individuals within families differ from one another. You can never get a rooster or hen of any breed based on the reviews of behavior with complete confidence that they will live up to the reviews. Even production is not guaranteed. Judge the breeder correctly and you'll judge the breeds they produce correctly. For example, you can't develop good forager breeds if you keep them in cages in a suburban backyard, as they lose that trait because they can never act on it and reinforce it. (If only bullying and aggression were so easy to remove, but caging them often exacerbates these traits, which makes eradication of these traits difficult because caging is often the only choice left to the owners for their protection and that of other animals in the flock). Likewise nobody in their right mind can sell you 'good broody breeds' if they've been removing the eggs and artificially incubating them for generation after generation and never letting them mother naturally --- yet they do sell them as maternal breeds and people wonder why they're such bad mothers when that breed is supposed to mother well.
Quote: Serious warning sign right there. He's fixated on attacking, he doesn't have any restraints nor recognition of you representing a new scenario, one where aggression may not be the right choice. He's set to attack humans without inhibition and it's very unusual in such a young one, he's not even half grown yet.

Quote: The submission thing I've never seen work long term. I've done it myself. I think it possibly confuses them, not causes actual respect nor submission. Whatever methods you try, aim at consistency, generally speaking in terms of animal behavior, but with outright extreme aggression like this, culling is the best solution, as much as we'd all like to find a cure.

Quote:
Sorry to not offer you hope here, but I would kill him or get rid of him. Your son should not fear an animal in his own yard, caged or not. That is saddening and concerning. This rooster --- cockerel, actually --- that you are describing is seriously dangerous, not even potentially --- it's a matter of when, not if.

He is hyper-aggressive, and since he's so young, it's extra abnormal, and when he grows up, keeping him will be endangering your son's life and wholeness as well as your own. They can and do kill children and maim people in general quite commonly. He's only 5 months or so, you say --- this is an extreme level of aggression for what is basically a 13 year old to be showing, in human terms of age/development. Give him another few months, till he's the equivalent of an 18 to 20 year old human, and he will be doing serious damage to both you and your hens, by the sounds of it.

Quality of life is very important, but not only his quality of life, but also your son's, yours, and your hens'. If his quality of life depends on abusing others, let him be gone, he is a waste of space and resources. It's strongly heritable and you can populate your yard with more of his type if you keep them. Human-directed-aggression is rarely actually based on or triggered by anything humans do, it's more based on their violent mentality.

Good roosters, as you've seen, simply do not do this. The same with his abuse of the females. Should never be done nor accepted. Clumsy is one thing, vicious is another, and never do those mentalities cross.

If you want to try to train him out of it, I wish you all the best with it, but for safety's sake, you'd probably need to find someone who can honestly state that they have permanently eradicated human aggression within a year and never had it recur years down the track, and they need to be able to clearly state their methods in order to help you.

We vaguely approached this on another thread, but the person claiming it could be done could not elaborate on whether they'd achieved it and could not detail their methods so nobody is the wiser, and at this point, I have not seen anyone permanently rehabilitate a vicious rooster. The closest we've gotten to that is someone stating after 10 years (!) they succeeded getting one aggressive hen to stop flogging their face, but the animal still breeds on its aggression. Also, their methods won't necessarily work for someone who does not have the facilities to permanently cage the animal, nor a decade to devote to housing and managing violent inmates in some kind of domestic insane asylum for wannabe killers.

My stance on it is why keep a nasty brute when there are great roosters out there dying for want of a good home?

There are many who bashed their roosters with a weapon and received respect from them for a day, a week, a month, a few months... But nobody I've yet heard of got long term success no matter their methods. After that initial success they all say they've found the way, it can be done, but when asked for a follow up down the track so we know how it's going, they won't give one. We can guess how it went. Not good.

If a rooster is bent on doing you violence, it's only a matter of time before he gets his chance, and they get cunning about if and wait until your back is turned, or you don't have your weapon, or your child is alone. A fully grown rooster (as he will be around his first or second birthday) will have spurs around two inches long and is capable of maiming for life or killing a child in mere seconds. I've seen a rooster maul a toddler, not my rooster, and not a family member of mine, but it's horrific and happens before anyone can intervene. The child did not react, it was so fast, they just stood there as the rooster, moving so fast it was a blur, leaped up repeatedly to attack the face and neck, stabbing with both spurs multiple times per jump, before anybody managed to reach them. You can be meters away and still not get there in time, before serious harm is done. He can stab your child multiple times in a second. Give him five seconds and he can have done too much damage for the child to survive. People often underestimate how dangerous they can be. An adult rooster can also reach your face from the ground without using his wings to help him get there.
Quote: No, your first rooster was a good rooster just because that was his nature. Being beaten up by hens, or other roosters, or humans, or not being beaten up by hens/other roosters/people, are not the cause of a good roosters' decency. It's either their nature or it's not.

Sounds like that yearling Buff you mention first will be one he will quite possibly kill in the future. He's insane and she knows it. She's right to refuse him. Nobody benefits from him passing on his genes.

The Sexlinks are generally notorious for squatting whenever approached by anything, be it a human, another species or a rooster. AI is common in establishing some breeds so their sexual instincts are confused and often partially focused on humans as humans have played the third wheel in their breed history. Their background as with most high production layer breeds is one of infrequent assaults by aggressive roosters who are put in with flocks for short periods of time to wreak havoc and mate in the most stressful manner possible, as well as abnormal social relations caused by overcrowded and stimuli-devoid environments and gender segregation, and warped/dormant instincts due to intensive commercial rearing facilities and breeder selection focused on production rather than positive over negative behavioral traits. When you separate males from females as a rule, and females and males from their offspring as a rule, they soon lose the instincts to deal with one another in positive ways and violence results.

At what point does it make sense for a rooster to offer food to a hen and then assault her for coming to take what is offered? He's no good. Please, don't yield your yard and peace to this little dictator, be rid of him and save yourself, your son and your hens the unnecessary stress. Unless he poops solid gold I can't think of a reason to put up with his attitude. Please don't feel sorry for him, the vast majority of violent roosters were never abused before they began abusing, though for sure more of them were abused in self defense once they started harming humans or other animals.

Of course, I accept your decision whether you decide to ignore my advice or not, so please don't feel like I'm going to flame you for disregarding my suggestions. If you can find a way to fix this issue, many people would love to know. I'm one of those who have tried and found it not worth the bother. Small successes were overshadowed by the general waste of time and space those roosters are. I couldn't justify it.

You can breed the trait out over 7 generations, as a general rule of thumb, but that's a heck of a lot of risk in the meanwhile. Ideally someone with no children is better suited to the task.

Best wishes, whatever your decision. Stay safe.

 

[chammer70]

I am so grateful for your reply and input. We are not new to chickens, but as I said, very limited experience with roosters. My husband grew up with them and he said they were nonaggressive towards humans, but we know many who have had nasty roosters. Then when I started reading posts, it sounded like maybe that is normal? Then I realized that people with nice roosters wouldn't be asking for advice. Can you please explain what normal behavior is for a rooster? I realize our prior rooster was the extreme in laid back manner. Is some slight aggression towards people normal?

My husband is more wanting to keep him and give him quite a bit more time. It's a hard call for us because we are such huge animal lovers. We keep an animal NO matter what problems arise. We have three rescue dogs right now. The two male dogs (mastiff/mix and pitt/mix) after years of getting alone, suddenly went at it about three years ago and we've had to keep them away from each other or the pitt muzzled or a blood bath ensues. We deal with it. We don't get rid of one or the other. So it's not an easy call. But do I eat chicken? Yes, I do. Just not ours. )

So I took him through the points of your reply and I've agreed to give him a few more weeks, and if there's no change, he's agreed to cull him. At this point, I'm not hopeful there will be much of a change. Besides the fact that I won't have my hens abused like that, and at this point they're the ones confined. I have no problem confining him, but I guess that would be cruel and probably drive him more crazy. I will try to talk my husband into letting me try one more rooster and if that one exhibits similar behavior, then I'll just give up. Though I really enjoyed having such a wonderful roo.

Thank you again!

 

[roosterhavoc]

Cull him. He won't change. I had a rooster just like this. Also an EE. I kept him for three years and he never changed. My wife was scared to death of him because he would even kick at her hands when she was collecting eggs. I'll be honest at first I thought it was no big deal. Ah give him some time. He would only challenge me when I was walking straight toward him, which is not a problem to me. Then one day I came home from work in winter and threw the birds some scratch and he popped out of the bushes behind me and kicked me. I have a 2 yr old and he kicked me about hip high, culled him immediately. Better to just get it done and over with.
I have two roosters with my laying flock a WFBS and a Rhode Island white. Thirteen others didn't make the cut. I'm serious, out of 15 only two are what I consider good, staying with the hens while free ranging, not running away before the hens ant the first sign of danger, going to bed while all the hens are still out free ranging and just being overly rough with the hens. Dealing with roosters like that will make taking care of your chickens a chore.

 

[AmericanMom]

Cull him

As sad as you were over the loss of a sweet rooster how sad are you going to be if your 5 year old son looses an eye because you were to tenderhearted to make, what seems to most of us, an easy decision.

Why is there even a question?

 

[chammer70]

Yes, I agree. My son isn't going into their run anymore, nor does he want to, nor would I allow him to even if he did. Heck, I don't want to either at this point.
I love having chickens, but yes, if we can't interact with them, what's the point!? I promised him another week, but at this point, as far as I'm concerned, he's a goner.
Which makes me sad, but not worth the risk of harm to us and my hens.
Thanks, everyone! Any input is much appreciated.

 

[AmericanMom]

Yes, I agree. My son isn't going into their run anymore, nor does he want to, nor would I allow him to even if he did. Heck, I don't want to either at this point.
I love having chickens, but yes, if we can't interact with them, what's the point!? I promised him another week, but at this point, as far as I'm concerned, he's a goner.
Which makes me sad, but not worth the risk of harm to us and my hens.
Thanks, everyone! Any input is much appreciated.

That would be the deciding factor for me with any animal on my property, if my GK's who love to come to Poppy and Nanny's and collect eggs can no longer do so because of the mean rooster who may do them harm... We are very very picky about what animals we choose to keep and those we choose to cull... We once put down a large female rabbit that would have been an awesome breeder because every time we opened her cage or came near her she growled, when we fed her she nipped... It was those gene's we didn't want passed onto any of her offspring.

I understand wanting to see if you can "fix" him...I used to be the same way, that is until years ago our rooster nearly spurred me in the face. Stuff like that changes a person, its just not worth it.

 

[chooks4life]

I am so grateful for your reply and input. We are not new to chickens, but as I said, very limited experience with roosters. My husband grew up with them and he said they were nonaggressive towards humans, but we know many who have had nasty roosters. Then when I started reading posts, it sounded like maybe that is normal? Then I realized that people with nice roosters wouldn't be asking for advice.

That's precisely it. If you just went by what some problem animal owners said you'd get the impression that species as a whole is just trouble. I wonder, though, how many people think it's normal because of how many horror stories they hear? Good roosters don't get enough exposure, I reckon.

Can you please explain what normal behavior is for a rooster? I realize our prior rooster was the extreme in laid back manner. Is some slight aggression towards people normal?

Your previous rooster was actually a good example of a normal good rooster, by the sounds of it, not even extreme. He was functional, socially and in normal roosterly ways, lol. An extremely laid back rooster isn't necessarily a good one, he has to be positively participating in social life with humans and chooks to be truly good. You can get laid back roosters who will only mate and do nothing else with their time. They may not be aggressive to humans, but they're not exactly shining examples of the heights of male chicken standards, either. Good enough for some but in my opinion they are freeloaders. A good rooster has social duties to fulfill, and does so, not just loafs around eating when you feed them and trying to grab onto passing hens, all day, every day, like there is nothing more to their life.

Aggression towards people is normal just like cannibalism and hens lacking all maternal/broody instinct and killing chicks, disease susceptibility, and flocks brutalizing members to death on a regular basis, none of which are necessarily healthy or natural behaviors.

They're just common enough to be called 'normal'. Normal doesn't mean 'endemic to the species', though, and 'normal' doesn't mean all of them possess these traits, just that they're common. Thankfully the reverse are also common.

Good roosters, non cannibals, good mothers, disease resistance, etc are also normal. These sorts of traits run strongly in family lines and can easily be selected for or against. You can find examples of all those traits everywhere, both extremes are normal. If that even makes sense.

I guess, to attempt to simplify it, what is normal for any given chook or bloodline is whatever the breeder of the last few generations of any given family line selected for and against.

Normal behavior, or good behavior, involves him remaining respectful around you at all times. He may be nervous due to lack of handling but at no point will a good rooster attack you because he's nervous. He may show his respect by moving out of your way, or he may be one who trusts a little too much and just stands there expecting you to walk around him or step over him. But bad roosters can also avoid you or stand in your way; the difference is subtle but it's in their eyes and body language. One of the main things you'll learn as a rooster keeper is what the 'evil eye' looks like. A good rooster will never, ever give you the evil eye. Direct eye contact isn't necessarily the evil eye, many of them when trusting and friendly will make prolonged eye contact with an affectionate mentality behind it; it can't be compared to the evil eye no matter how brief it is. Once you know what it looks like, you'll be in possession of one of the most reliable tools to discern future attackers among your flock. Hens too will give the evil eye to intended victims. Even chicks show a certain glint of negative intention in their eyes.

A good rooster may keep an eye on what you're doing when you grab a hen or chick, but he won't come over to attack you or the animal you're holding at any point. He may dislike you taking eggs but he's not going to attack you over it. He won't peck you for any reason, he won't 'dance' you or respond to your movements by turning to face you directly and lowering his head like he's squaring off. He won't harm you or your children, nor hens, nor chicks, and while some don't mind rooster on rooster violence, my standards of what a good rooster is define it as being one who doesn't harm or kill other roosters either. Socially normal and healthy chooks do not need to resort to killing or maiming one another. They're perfectly able to have hierarchy fights without spur wounds. The decision to use spurs involves changing position when striking, so instead of booting the opponent, they slash and stab instead.

Good roosters look after hens and often chicks as well, by finding food, nests, and even helping warm chicks, don't harm hens or chicks, respect humans, and that's pretty much it. The flocks' safety and wellbeing depends on human management, so you must be able to handle the birds without the rooster assaulting you.

My husband is more wanting to keep him and give him quite a bit more time.

Many people here have 'given them more time'. It's not worth it. It's commendable that you give animals every chance but you also need to recognize unconscionable risks when you see them for your child's sake. This is an animal demonstrating most ably its desire to harm you or your child. Would you keep a dog that showed every intention of mauling your child? Do you have a double-door entry cubicle in your cage so you can ensure that he won't manage to slip out while you go into the cage at any time? It may help to consider that in another 6 months or so your cockerel will be capable of inflicting stab wounds more comparable to those inflicted by a large dog rather than a small one.

If you give him more time all he'll do with it is get bigger and stronger and more vicious and more able to harm you. It's strange to compare chooks and humans but really, a cockerel who's not even halfway grown attacking humans is rather like a child who's just entered puberty trying to kill someone. It's not normal by any stretch of the imagination. It's not a sign of good things to come.

He is not even acting on adult male instinct, as he's only just entered puberty and his full instincts will come over the next 6 months to a year from now, on average. He's acting on his psychosis.

Would your husband tolerate this behavior in a hen? I doubt it. Yet many hens do this too, exhibit intense and unjustified aggression to humans and other chooks. It's not as common but it's certainly not uncommon. Arguably it's less common because of gender stereotypes. People are quick to cull the demon pullet from hell, but not the cockerel, most people (at least at first) give him a pass for being male despite the many good males out there. Yet both genders of hyper-aggressive chooks, if allowed to live and breed, will basically as a rule make more of the same. Even a slight trend towards violence in one parent can produce offspring as aggressive as what you're seeing.

It's a hard call for us because we are such huge animal lovers. We keep an animal NO matter what problems arise. We have three rescue dogs right now. The two male dogs (mastiff/mix and pitt/mix) after years of getting alone, suddenly went at it about three years ago and we've had to keep them away from each other or the pitt muzzled or a blood bath ensues. We deal with it. We don't get rid of one or the other. So it's not an easy call. But do I eat chicken? Yes, I do. Just not ours. )

I take it though that your dogs don't threaten your lives? It can be hard when two beloved pets suddenly no longer get along, but if they're threatening a human life, that's entirely different.

So I took him through the points of your reply and I've agreed to give him a few more weeks, and if there's no change, he's agreed to cull him. At this point, I'm not hopeful there will be much of a change. Besides the fact that I won't have my hens abused like that, and at this point they're the ones confined.

Yeah, if you want the best eggs and health for/from them you can't confine them, it makes it much harder to get the absolute best out of them. And if there is a change in your rooster it'll be an incredibly rare occurrence, not something I'd stake my safety on.

I have no problem confining him, but I guess that would be cruel and probably drive him more crazy.

Yes, caging is mostly one reliable way to make them more aggressive if they're already like that, but it's not like you have a choice.

I will try to talk my husband into letting me try one more rooster and if that one exhibits similar behavior, then I'll just give up. Though I really enjoyed having such a wonderful roo.

Giving up only leaves good roosters without a home. It's a shame. But, your choice and I understand.

Thank you again!

I agree with what everyone's said here in response to your thread, I'm sure most if not all of us have been in your position before or something similar and tried many alternatives before giving up on rehabilitating bad roosters. I selected against it and culled it out and have had hundreds of non-human-aggressive roosters since then. It's strongly heritable.

Best wishes.

 

[Michael OShay]

Your fellow BYC members have given you some good advice. An aggressive rooster has to be culled from the flock, but I want to take this point even a step further.

You need to really ask yourself, "Why do I want a rooster to begin with?"

Are you intent on breeding your own chickens [obviously you will need a rooster to do that (but no more than one for every ten hens)], or are you content to simply purchase replacement pullets when they are needed (this will insure a continual influx of new blood into your flock so that you will have no inbreeding problems)?

As drumstick diva said in an earlier post today, "Your hens will lay eggs whether you have a rooster or not. You only need a rooster if you want to have "fertile" eggs for hatching."

A rooster is not going to be able to protect your flock from predators like the raccoon or bobcat that killed your chickens. Protection from predators requires predator proofing your coop and runs by making sure they are completely enclosed from bottom to top (for protection from aerial predators), and underneath (for protection from digging predators) with hardward cloth, not chicken wire (which bobcats and raccoons can tear through) or some other type of fencing with large openings in the mesh (through which predators like weasels, minks, snakes, and rats can pass).

One BYC member said (I think it was donrae, but am not positive), "If you don't have any roosters, you won't have any rooster fights." I'm not sure that the quote is word for word, but that is the gist of it.

I have had many roosters and have bred them many times in the past, but I currently have 25 hens and no roosters. I not only get loads of eggs, but I have no extra mouths to feed that don't lay eggs, I don't have to listen to any crowing in the middle of the night, I don't have injured, over-bred hens with missing feathers from roosters who play too rough, and I don't have to worry about my granddaughter or anyone else getting spurred when they enter the run or coop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you not to have a rooster, but if you do keep one, you should be sure you have a good reason for keeping him.

Good luck with your flock.