Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[schnebbles]

You can put vaccinated chicks in your flock but they need to be quarantined in a place that hasn't been exposed for at least 3 weeks, the longer the better.

Rancho - I'm thinking I read that chicks from mareks parents don't have it automatically, but they would get it when they hatched I suppose. I've seen breeding for resistance but not read a bunch on that.

I had read about mareks but had no clue how common it was. the 3 people I got my chickens from don't vaccinate, one even told her that her NPIP person said it's so rare not to mess with it. Apparently they don't know what they are talking about. All 3 people I got mine from live in Ohio too. I think I got it somewhere else.

One off the wall thought was that when we got the coop, We stopped with it in our truck to a place in Dayton I was looking at chickens. this place was beyond disgusting, I turned them in as a matter of fact. Perhaps it got on my coop?

Or, I got it at the fair. Or the air. I'll never know, but I don't think it came from any of my breeders.

I'm really confused now because Doc Peter Brown aka the Chicken doctor, is who said the vaccine can help. I do not believe this doctor would steer me wrong. I am going to listen to his advice and do the vaccines.

It's all so confusing and sad. I'm hoping the rest of my birds are strong enough to resist it. I have 2 other silkies and I fear most for them. My d'uccles seem pretty strong. they are all 7 months or less so I know I'm right at the line where they usually get it. Although I know it can strike whenever.

 

[Nambroth]

I tried reading through much of this thread for an answer to a questions I've posted last night and noticed a few mentions about vaccinating adult/sick/exposed birds. I have been advised by a vet that this would not be useful, as the exposure has already occurred except in cases where you have a mature flock that has never been exposed (not likely if you're searching for answers on Marek's).

Just my 1/2 cent.

In case you missed my question and have advice, I'll ask here. If I have had a Marek's outbreak and have some birds that did not show symptoms, but are exposed, can I add vaccinated chicks to the flock? I have a back coop that will house a new crop of fowl for 5-6 weeks, at which time the rotation is to move them to the big coop up the hill with the others...

I agree with your thoughts on this and have posted a similar comment just above. If someone has been advised otherwise by a vet or professional I'd love to learn why so I can figure it out myself.

As far as your question, I will try my best:
If you want to add chickens, vaccinated birds seem absolutely the way to go. If you are asking if the chicks will all survive, then it depends. It depends on what strain of Marek's virus is on your property and being shed by your currently exposed birds. It also depends on what vaccine the chicks have been given. Marek's can be very frustrating because there are not only different strains (it has mutated) but different vaccines, all with differing effectiveness. Unfortunately, the only way to know what strain you have in your flock is to have a DNA blood test run, which can be done on a live bird but is a bit expensive. To some people it is worth the peace of mind/planning effort to know and spend this, and to others it is not. There is no wrong answer, and you should decide based on your personal situation.
If you are vaccinating at home, or having a smaller breeder do it, then the vaccine is the older Turkey Marek's virus and can be anywhere from 90-50% effective, depending on the stain you are combating.
There are hatcheries that vaccinate with all three commercially available vaccines-- I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread which do. If you need help I can do a search. These chicks arguably have a much stronger chance against an "unknown" strain of Marek's.

It is very important to make sure they are vaccinated no later than 36 hours after hatching. There is also some new speculation and a scientific paper that suggests that re-vaccination at 1-2 weeks old might further booster their resistance. Again this is a personal choice to make. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2643530/
Chicks that do not get the vaccination within 36 hours of hatching, but at a later time, may have a better chance than those that have not been vaccinated at all, but should never be considered "properly vaccinated".

When introducing new, vaccinated chicks to a Marek's+ flock, it's important to let the chicks build up a resistance (from the vaccine) as part of their natural immune system buffering when they are young. Most of us seem to agree that it's important not to expose the new chicks to Marek's disease at all for at least three weeks, though longer is better. As Marek's is spread on dander particles -- some of which are the size of dust or smaller-- it's very important to use safeguards during those first few weeks so that you do not track the virus in on yourself, clothing, or shoes... to wherever the chicks are being kept.

When exposing birds, I like to think that gradual exposure is better. I do not know if this has any scientific backing, but my thought is that by exposing them to the disease in small amounts at first, that the immune system and vaccination resistance has a higher chance of battling the virus. It is my hope that reducing the amount of virus in the chicken's environment (by cleaning dander regularly, I use a shop vac with a drywall filter and odoban) that if a bird becomes stressed or is otherwise more susceptible that it will have a better chance.

 

[Nambroth]

You can put vaccinated chicks in your flock but they need to be quarantined in a place that hasn't been exposed for at least 3 weeks, the longer the better.

Rancho - I'm thinking I read that chicks from mareks parents don't have it automatically, but they would get it when they hatched I suppose. I've seen breeding for resistance but not read a bunch on that.

This is correct, Marek's is thankfully one DNA virus that cannot be passed vertically (through the egg), but yes... if the chicks are exposed after that egg shell cracks and they start breathing the ambient air well, they are then exposed and can't be considered vaccinated properly even if administering the vaccine immediately.

I had read about mareks but had no clue how common it was. the 3 people I got my chickens from don't vaccinate, one even told her that her NPIP person said it's so rare not to mess with it. Apparently they don't know what they are talking about. All 3 people I got mine from live in Ohio too. I think I got it somewhere else.

One off the wall thought was that when we got the coop, We stopped with it in our truck to a place in Dayton I was looking at chickens. this place was beyond disgusting, I turned them in as a matter of fact. Perhaps it got on my coop?

Or, I got it at the fair. Or the air. I'll never know, but I don't think it came from any of my breeders.

I'm really confused now because Doc Peter Brown aka the Chicken doctor, is who said the vaccine can help. I do not believe this doctor would steer me wrong. I am going to listen to his advice and do the vaccines.

Was he telling you that vaccinating unexposed, healthy, older chickens, was helpful? This I agree with, it may well be! It's not the same as vaccinating day-olds, but it cannot hurt.
If he was saying that vaccinating a bird that was demonstrating active symptoms of Marek's disease would help, I can't understand that. Maybe he can explain. I'd love to learn more. I am not suggesting he mislead you but I just can't understand the scientific logic behind this. I'd love to be proven wrong, if it helps more birds make it!!

It's all so confusing and sad. I'm hoping the rest of my birds are strong enough to resist it. I have 2 other silkies and I fear most for them. My d'uccles seem pretty strong. they are all 7 months or less so I know I'm right at the line where they usually get it. Although I know it can strike whenever.

I replied above in red, I'm sorry again that you are dealing with this!

 

[BigECarter]

I'm really confused now because Doc Peter Brown aka the Chicken doctor, is who said the vaccine can help.  I do not believe this doctor would steer me wrong.  I am going to listen to his advice and do the vaccines.  

One of the bloggers I follow, Chicken Chick (she goes by some variation of ADozenGirlz on BYC), claims to have had some blogger-issues with the chicken whisperer and his doc. I made this comment and this was her reply,
"Peter Brown, the Chicken Whisperer's 'Chicken Doctor' is not a veterinarian, he holds a PhD, not a DVM. His business is selling veterinary supplies/drugs/products to backyard chicken keepers."

The one show I listened to left me less than impressed about his expertise. He may be right about the vaccine, but I would research him a bit before deciding how much weight to put on his recommendations. Just my two cents.

E

 

[schnebbles]

hmmm. I know he works closely with the Ag dept in Maryland (think that's where he's from).

He did suggest giving it to my mareks bird in hopes that it could help reverse it.

If I hear from him, which I should b/c of my order payment went wacky, I'll ask him.

 

[seminolewind]

I tried reading through much of this thread for an answer to a questions I've posted last night and noticed a few mentions about vaccinating adult/sick/exposed birds. I have been advised by a vet that this would not be useful, as the exposure has already occurred except in cases where you have a mature flock that has never been exposed (not likely if you're searching for answers on Marek's).

Just my 1/2 cent.

In case you missed my question and have advice, I'll ask here. If I have had a Marek's outbreak and have some birds that did not show symptoms, but are exposed, can I add vaccinated chicks to the flock? I have a back coop that will house a new crop of fowl for 5-6 weeks, at which time the rotation is to move them to the big coop up the hill with the others...

Vaccinating exposed birds, you're right. Won't help. I think some people see a vaccine as medicine. It's not. It's a Marek's exposure that will not give them Marek's. But it gives their immune system a boost making their bodies resistant to Marek's. They are not cured.

LilRedRoo, you can add vaccinated chicks to your flock. Just be sure to quarantine them for 2 or more weeks to give the vaccine time to work. 30% of mine are vaccinated now. 30% are 4-6 years old , and were there before the Marek's. The rest were after Marek's arrived and I didn't know it.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: Years ago, Peter Brown seemed to be the most knowledgeable about chickens and was one to go to for advice. But since then, the members here continuously pooling our research and experiences probably know more than anyone except researching doctors or professors.

I love the Chickenchick's blog!

The vaccine is not medicine. The vaccine is Marek's virus made safe. It gives the bird an exposure so the bird has resistance before the bird is exposed to the real thing. It can't possibly save an exposed bird.

A flu vaccine is actually the flu, providing an exposure without the illness. It will not help you if you already have the flu.

 

[seminolewind]

After losing 3 chickens in what I think was a coyote attack, I bought 3 adult vaccinated hens from a local on craigslist. She said she bought them from McMurray's and they came vaccinated as chicks. I think she was down-sizing because her coop was overcrowded , as two of the hens had their butts pecked bald. None of them ever had any issues, and almost a year later now they have big fluffy healthy butts!
Only one of my vaccinated hens got sick, and she eventually recovered after staying inside with me for a month.

Oh, you too? My little Polish hen, vaccinated X2, had paralysis for about 4-6 weeks and we gave her a chance since she ate well and did not waste, and started walking again, and it's been over a year.

 

[CeeJ]

Well, I just now got the final report from the Dept if Ag lab. Although the vet previously said there was nothing to show mareks, the final report lists mareks are the primary cause. Cocci as well. Evidently they did additional testing after al my phone calls. I have 3 others that I was told showed no mareks, so it'll be interesting what those final reports show. It has been 4 weeks since the first necropsy i assumed it was anyway as their symptoms sadly match to a T. I will not bother taking to 2 I had put down yesterday. I know the answer. I don't understand why ghe guy was so sure it was not mareks ... But he didn't sign the final report. At least I know for sure. Thank you all for your help. I hope my remaining teenagers make it.

Now the big question. I have kept the teenagers housed seperate from my older girls. But as it spreads so easily I'm sure they've been exposed. The coop the teenagers are in is not the best for winter and I had intended on merging them in the bigger coop. I am a bit confused if they should be mixed completely as this may inccrease the smount of exposure and make it more likely that some of my big girls would show symptoms. Then again, so long as none of the teenagers are showing symptoms, I'm not sure it makes a difference. I've read they shed more virus when symptomatic, so woukd that mean just pulling them on fist sign of trouble? Or just keep them seperate?

Thoughts???

 

[Nambroth]

CeeJ,

I want (as always) to forward this with "I am not an expert or a vet". I'm just someone that has this disease and spend a lot of time (maybe too much time) researching and trying to understand...

Are any of your adult birds showing active symptoms? The way herpesviruses work... and I am only guessing Marek's is no different... is that the virus replicates itself in huge amounts when the bird is succumbing to symptoms (actively ill / showing signs). The virus replicates itself by tricking the bird's healthy cells into copying the Marek's Virus and the cell gets so full of the virus that it bursts, releasing the virus and causing cell death. It's why the very virulent form causes so many fast-forming lymphomatic tumors in the body.

What that all means, simply, is that when a bird shows symptoms or is actively sick from the virus, the virus is making a ton of itself and the bird is shedding a LOT of the virus.

When a bird is a carrier, but has built resistance, and is not showing symptoms (all healthy birds of an "exposed" flock), then they are still contagious, but shed the virus in much, much smaller quantities. The virus has gone into latency at this point and is piggybacking in the bird's DNA.... but is not necessarily replicating a lot of itself.

With this basic understanding, one can assume:
-- All exposed birds are shedding very small amounts of the virus from time to time.
-- All symptomatic/birds sick from active Marek's are shedding large amounts of the virus the entire time they are sick.

So, what I generally suggest... and of course, do what you are most comfortable with in the end, is that you clean any areas that have had symptomatic birds. Generally, this is a coop where they lived, because coops are the best place for their dry dander to accumulate! I like to use a shop vac with a drywall filter to suck out as much particulate as possible, then douse everything with a viruicidal cleaner (not all are!). Two that are known to kill environmental viruses, when used properly, are activated Oxine, and Odoban. I chose odoban personally because it is labeled as being able to kill herpesvirus specifically, which is what Marek's is. Then you can introduce your teenagers into an environment that has much, much less Marek's Virus in it than before.

If you currently have any birds showing symptoms, you may want to separate them and then do the cleaning as mentioned above.

I hope this helps!