Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[ochochicas]

She's a cutie! She looks a lot like my Legbar crosses. I have three left that will hopefully give me eggs some day. I'm wishing you luck!

 

[seminolewind]

update on the little legbar: she's still hanging in there. Definitely not healthy, but eating ok...at least I think. With the work schedule this week, I haven't been able to check her crop in the morning to see if she is actually digesting stuff or if it is hanging in her crop. She comes for treats, but hangs in the coop earlier than the others. She does, however, feel well enough to peck at the ees that get to close to her.

Course, now one of the ee's is suspect. I haven't sorted out whether she is one who hatched last year or the year before....got to get those leg rings on those girls.

Everything is a lot harder when you work, LOL. Okay that sounds good if she pecked at someone, right?

My little straggler is now behaving like the rest of the flock. She's smaller than the rest but growing. Now I have another one who has been standoffish, and closed her eyes momentarily, so everyone got put on sulfadimethoxine. I picked her up and she didn't fight me. If she doesn't improve by tomorrow, I'll be adding an antibiotic. I'm just hoping that if it's cocci, I caught it right at the beginning. If it's not one thing, it's another.

 

[Akrnaf2]

Hello to all of you.
I read with amazement all the posts that you bring , and I am very impressed by the efforts all of you put in the sick chickens and roosters . I just want to understand what is the ultimate goal of all those efforts ?
Are you trying to look for a way to cure the disease? Are you trying to recover chickens from neurological damage ? After all, this is nearly impossible . Have you thought about what kind of life will your chickens have after a Seaver neurological damage? Did you think that maybe you should invest this tremendous efforts in things that Have greater chances of success ?
To clarify I do not mean to offend or tease you , I just wanted to really understand !
Thank you in advance
The Rhinoceros(Akarnf)

 

[ochochicas]

Our birds are our pets. We treat them with special care, medication, and extra food to give them every possible chance to survive. We all know that culling and death are an inevitable part of having Marek's in our flock. However, being the animal lovers that we are, we don't want to euthanize our birds if there is even the slightest, smallest chance that the bird can maintain itself and possibly improve.

It really is a fine line for many of us when figuring out when is the right time to cull. We want to give our chickens every chance possible, but we also don't want them to suffer endlessly. Personally, I have culled birds early on. I don't regret it at all since my strain of Marek's is very aggressive and none of my birds have ever improved. However, I do have two pullets that recovered from some type of illness that could be Marek's related. One had severe respiratory problems - the same type that killed two of my older birds. She is doing great now and hardly coughs at all anymore. Another bird survived an impacted crop (which can be caused by Marek's). She just celebrated her 6-month birthday. Both of the survivors have always had good attitudes and appetites, and they have always been completely ambulatory.

When I have birds that can't walk or don't want to eat, I usually make the call within 7 days. I give them 5 - 7 days of antibiotics, tube feedings, etc. I've had a couple that improved for a week, just to crash again later. I found two dead in the coop, and my favorite pullet went completely blind after seeming to make a recovery twice. I had to cull her in the middle of the night. I'd rather just do it when they have some quality of life left instead of waiting until they are in agony.

Other people have had more luck with treating sick Marek's birds than I have. More power to ya!

Someday hopefully one of us will find the magic bullet that can kill off the effects of this horrible virus.

 

[seminolewind]

Hello to all of you.
I read with amazement all the posts that you bring , and I am very impressed by the efforts all of you put in the sick chickens and roosters . I just want to understand what is the ultimate goal of all those efforts ?
Are you trying to look for a way to cure the disease? Are you trying to recover chickens from neurological damage ? After all, this is nearly impossible . Have you thought about what kind of life will your chickens have after a Seaver neurological damage? Did you think that maybe you should invest this tremendous efforts in things that Have greater chances of success ?
To clarify I do not mean to offend or tease you , I just wanted to really understand !
Thank you in advance
The Rhinoceros(Akarnf)

This past 8 years or so have been a first in history of Marek's being a concern to people outside of the commercial industry. There is so much we don't know and so much information is brought here to the "table" by many. Some information is correct. Much is outdated.

Ocho says a lot about chickens being pets and giving them every chance we can. Also offering support to others

I don't think any of us thinks we can cure the chickens. We are a kind of hybrid group in this, we are the only ones outside of research scientists that has a concern, but our concern is based on the value of a life-even a chicken.

I think our goal is to not feel so helpless when trying to save a life. This thread used to be a support group for those who are upset over their Marek's losses. It's become more informational.

I think most of us understands when severe neuro damage affects quality of life and leads to end of life.

There are quite a number of us here, including me, that have always had the goal of informing people about Marek's. Between chicken people not knowing why their chickens are dying, incorrect information, vets that have told some clients that Marek's isn't something backyard chicken owners need to worry about, and denial. Or not knowing how to prevent it, what the vaccine does and does not do, and what illnesses are secondary to Marek's and possibly treatable.

Akarnf, , I hope you can understand us a bit better. My goal was met a long time ago when I said if I can help one person learn about Marek's, I'd be happy.

 

[seminolewind]

Lovely. I now have a 6 week old chick who is kind of listless and pooped green (

). She is now on the cocktail of sulfadimethoxine and LS-50 (Lincomycin and Spectomycin) because that's all I have right now. And got a Kaytee feeding.

With tube feedings -what my father had to say about that was (why do you waste your time with that?) I had so many replies I could give him, but I opted to keep my mouth shut.

My daughter said to me one day "why do you have to have so many chickens?" I replied "why did you have to have more than one kid?" I am getting better at comebacks, LOL

 

[Akrnaf2]

This past 8 years or so have been a first in history of Marek's being a concern to people outside of the commercial industry.  There is so much we don't know and so much information is brought here to the "table" by many.  Some information is correct.  Much is outdated. 

Ocho says a lot about chickens being pets and giving them every chance we can.  Also offering support to others

I don't think any of us thinks we can cure the chickens.  We are a kind of hybrid group in this, we are the only ones outside of research scientists that has a concern, but our concern is based on the value of a life-even a chicken. 

I think our goal is to not feel so helpless when trying to save a life.  This thread used to be a support group for those who are upset over their Marek's losses.  It's become more informational. 

I think most of us understands when severe neuro damage affects quality of life and leads to end of life. 

There are quite a number of us here, including me, that have always had the goal of informing people about Marek's.  Between chicken people not knowing why their chickens are dying, incorrect information, vets that have told some clients that Marek's isn't something backyard chicken owners need to worry about, and denial.  Or not knowing how to prevent it, what the vaccine does and does not do,  and what illnesses are secondary to Marek's and possibly treatable. 

Akarnf, , I hope you can understand us a bit better.  My goal was met a long time ago when I said if I can help one person learn about Marek's, I'd be happy. 

Thank you all for the explanations
We in Israel, as far as my knowledge reach, don't experienced MD in the same intensity you experience it in the USA. I am an administrator in chicken forum here, and in all the years that I am a member I can say that only in one confirm case, we didn't experienced MD in any of our community members. I know the pathogenesis of this awful virus and I am almost 100% shore that almost 100% of the flocks here have MV in a latent stage. I, as zoologist, and as a chicken grower is very intrigue about the reasons of the different in between our 2 communities. I am asking myself what is different? The virus strands? The chicken stock? The climate condition that is les stressful here? (And we know the connection between MD and stress), the feed? What? You all don't think that it is interesting to know the reasons?

 

[rebrascora]

@Akrnaf2

I do think it depends on the aggressiveness of the strain and your previous experience of dealing with it, which helps to govern your decision to treat/care or cull.
My views on animal care are very much the same as those on human care..... look after them as best as you can until quality of life is gone and they are suffering with no hope of recovery.
My Dad and I sat with my mother in hospital holding her hands and watching her body heave for breath and spasm for 2 hours when she died. We had already been told that there was no hope. It was the hardest time of my life and I pleaded for someone to end it, as would have been done for an animal. The memory still haunts me. I think my views are the same on this regardless of the patient being human or animal. "Loving" care and support whilst quality of life is sustainable, "loving" euthanasia when it is not.

My two current Marek's girls have had symptoms since last Sept/Oct. One of them has been through a couple of really bad spells when I have contemplated ending it, but my gut feeling was that I had to give her more time. Looking at them now, happily foraging and free ranging in my large mixed flock and laying 3-4 eggs a week, I really can't countenance how culling her would have been right. The one that I did cull was different somehow and I just had a gut feeling that it was time (she was the first animal I had ever deliberately killed and it was an incredibly hard thing for me to do). Finding the huge tumours when I opened her up vindicated that decision, but did not make me think that I have to cull every bird that shows Marek's symptoms... I have to judge each one on it's merits..

I find it interesting that your experience in Israel is different, in that the incidence of the disease is so low yet the virus is present and the suggestion that climatic conditions may play a part in that is certainly food for thought. My 2 girls have clearly benefited hugely from warm weather and sunshine and grass, which have only been available in the past couple of months in our climate. It makes sense to think that the winter weather could conversely trigger an attack.... especially if they are confined to the coup etc for long periods.

@ochochicas

Thanks. She is a sweetheart as well as being cute, Yes I believe she is a legbar cross. She was supposed to be a pure legbar (my sister-out-law bought hatching eggs that were supposed to be welsummers and legbars and incubated them for me) but I have two like this that look like a cross between the two. She lays a very pretty green egg and the other one lays pale blue like a legbar. Thankfully the other one hasn't developed any Marek's symptoms apart from also being petite. They are coming up to a year old later this month, so hopefully I am past the danger period with my strain of the disease.

@lalaland

Keeping fingers crossed that your little pullet hangs in there and makes the progress I've seen with my girls. Definitely a good sign that she pecked the other hen. That really gives me hope when I see them displaying a bit of feisty attitude.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
In the 80's , US lost up to 70% of their industry chickens, and with the vaccine, the losses were still big. They learned from the Amish that it's not only the vaccine, but practicing all in-all out, disinfecting between batches. Industry now has 2-5% losses.

In the meantime, in the last 10 years, backyard chickens has become a very desireable hobby and unfortunately, that has led to buying chickens from all different places, all different ages and adding to established flocks frequently. Vaccinating for backyard flocks was not routinely practiced until the last 5-6 years. As a hobby and pets, people hold chicken swaps where everyone buys and sells chickens from their flocks. People buy at auctions. All this has led to a serious situation.

This forum has 300,000 or so members plus people who read but don't join. I don't know if you are talking about the hobby chicken owners or industry in comparison. I would imagine that climate may have something to do with it. Also,most chickens in the world lay eggs and then become dinner probably before the age of 2. Hobby owners here can have chickens In their flocks that are 4-8 years old.

 

[ochochicas]

Climate also had a factor in how much Marek's is going to affect the chicken population. I read on one hatchery's website that in the Pacific Northwest Marek's is considered to be an epidemic due to the wet, miserable weather here. I'm sure in Israel the climate is much different which may be one reason Marek's is not a huge problem. Count your blessings!