Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[seminolewind]

I have a 5 week old vaccinated silkie that I found wing walking at 2 weeks old. She was also walking backwards, and put her head down, but didn't do it much. As per Casportpony, I hydrated her with tube watering. Then I started tubing Kaytee. She seemed to improve, walking normally now, and almost eating not enough. I tube fed her for a week then stopped because she seemed to be eating the wet mash-not enough and I never saw her drink. I would definitely say her symptoms were related to not having food or water.

She was puny compared to the rest and got run over a lot. I sectioned her off and she went ballistic, so I let her back with the rest and figured "sink or swim". She is 73 grams at this time. Last ditch effort, She has gotten 1 full day of cocktail yesterday and I see her eating crumbles, and for the first time saw her drink water. Her crop was fat last night.

So I'll continue with the cocktail, and see what happens. Kathy, I'm also using a scale for the first time! Fingers crossed!

 

[LuvnMyChix]

@ LuvnMyChix



Out of curiosity can you think of a trigger for your outbreak of Marek's. Mine happened when I had a lot of juvenile cockerels reaching sexual maturity and chasing after, and stressing the hens/pullets. Her second attack in Jan was as she was reaching point of lay. I'm hoping that, now I understand a bit more, I can try to prevent any further stressors.

Anyway, good luck with the rest of your flock. I hope you are over the worst of it.

I can't think of any trigger for the silkie cross, nor the pullet. Nothing had changed for them. Nothing.

The serama cockerel, however, began showing symptoms when his "wife" died...in fact, almost immediately following her death. His first symptom was that he stopped crowing. The rest of the symptoms followed.

 

[LuvnMyChix]

Interesting. Everything I've read/discussions with the folks that study this suggests otherwise. That, like other Herpes viruses, when the virus comes out of latency that the host sheds virus. As it can be difficult to know the difference between sub-clinical Marek's (in survivors) and other ailments (some common) it seems it would be very hard to tell if a bird might be shedding live virus or not. It seems safer to guess that at some point, an long-term infected bird will shed live virus.

As we still do not fully understand this family of viruses, it is safe to say that new findings are always expected (and welcome). I think the only thing we can all fully agree on is that Marek's sucks.

Amen to that!!

 

[LuvnMyChix]

The documentation I have is the face to face conversation with a DR. Reddy at the Harrisonburg AG Disease Lab, He is the Virginia Merecks professional, here. I took some chicks to him that had been showing signs of paralysis, there were 3 I took him in different stages, as I had lost already 5-6 chicks between the ages of 4-8 weeks of age. I was concerned about my entire flock even though they had been in separate pens.
He confirmed they were indeed Merecks chicks, and also had Coccidosis, which was a secondary issue to the Merecks, due to a comprised immune system.
I asked him did I need to cull my entre flock, and this is what he told me word for word. Merecks is everywhere, wild birds carry it, waterfowl especially are bad for transporting it. He told me to cull any that showed the signs, but as far as the others they will be immune to the virus, and that there are very few adults that will be effected by this unless their immune systems are weak already. It can not be transported thru eggs, it is carried in the wind and only chickens with a slight immune issue will get the virus, which is why you don't see adult birds that are already matured getting this disease. That vaccinating chicks is the best way to try to keep it from effecting your flocks in the future but still not a guarantee.
I was so scared I was going to have to kill off over 5000.00 worth of breeding stock , I was really relieved to hear someone explain this to me in layman terms, I am sure you can call your area AG Dept and get someone to confirm this.
I have had 3 sets of different chicks go thru the same brooding, grow-out pens, and into the coops that those chicks came out of, and so far no issues. With that said I do clean in between each and every litter, with OXINE, to keep the areas as clean as possible for the next group. That also had been done with those chicks that came down with the virus,, that I hatched from eggs, and never had , had that on my farm, in any of my other chickens, chicks, quail, etc. So it had to have been brought in by a wild bird maybe one of the crows, doves, hawks, eagles, etc etc.

I am no longer scared of this particular virus, due to the clear and common language that it was described to me. If I get chicks come up with it again they will be immediately culled, I am sure it will happen again in my lifetime, don't sell anything that that is any way or form sick, and separate them from the rest of the flock until you can confirm what you are dealing with. Use your AG Depts and be sure of illnesses before treating at home unless you know for sure what you are treating. Using antibiotics and drugs that are not needed only makes viruses that are immune to anything that can cure them. Practice clean farm practices by not letting new fowl on your farm until you have set it in a quarantined area away from all your other flocks at least 2 weeks I do 4.
Don't allow folks on your farm without making them use a antibacterial on their footwear, and even then they can carry on their clothing, skin, hair, etc to your farm.

I just tell people I will meet them to sell chicks off the farm somewhere, and don't allow strangers with chickens on your property, just a suggestion.

Dr Reddy was very impressed that I drove over 3 hours each way to bring my chicks in to find out what was going on , on my farm, as most people wont or don't because they are worried about others finding out they have some sort of issue on their farm. He also suggested since I had such great concern and willingness to learn more that I take the NPIP certification class in which I indeed did do. Knowing the real information of the professionals that deal with these issues on a daily basis is much more important to me that of people who do a little research online then inturpit it in their own words. I am not here to argue about this virus, just to give the information that was given to me by the Dr that did the autopsies on my birds. There are different opinions I am sure , but this is what I was told, and have no reason to not believe what he has told me.

Dr. Reddy is awesome, he is who I took my birds to. Took me 2 1/2 hours to get there. He told me the same things he told you. I believe and trust what he told me, because he has been dealing with this virus for DECADES.

Someone asked me if I had documentation to support what I was told. I replied that I did not, only what the doctor told me. And I trust him.

 

[LuvnMyChix]

I am sorry but some of the information here on the Merecks is incorrect the virus usually shows its ugly head when chicks are between 6 weeks, and 8 weeks of age if not before when chickens reach 6 months they are mature birds and are no longer at risk for the virus, per the DEPT of Agriculture Merecks specialist in VA. That said they can leave behind the virus for up to 6 months, after chickens have had the virus in that area. Only thoroughly disinfecting everything can clean out the virus.
Vaccinate everything then the only risk you have are the young birds getting the virus and shedding it off to others but if they are adult birds around the shedding there is no worries to getting the virus unless their immune systems are already compromised.

Dr. Reddy told me 1 year, not 6 months.

 

[seminolewind]

I had 28 adult chickens last March (2014) that were over a year old to 7 years old. At that time, February 2014, I got 9 chicks, vaccinated from a hatchery, quarantined for 6 weeks, and moved to a brand new pen away from the rest. At one year old, a hen died and was confirmed Marek's by a lab with a necropsy report which I have in my files. She was full of tumors on organs, but no sciatic involvement. She had no paralysis.

She's not the only demise I've had that's been 1-2 years old . I do have to say that younger birds do spew more virus and it's probably more potent. I've read from my research books that older birds still spew virus, but it can be sporadically. And birds do build an age related resistance but not immunity. And any older birds that have been exposed are prone to illnesses caused by immunosuppression. So you would have a 2 to 7 year old bird (maybe older) die from cocci , e.coli, clostridium-anything that lives in a chicken that normally does not harm them.

Between valid research, experience, others here with the same, and necropsies, Marek's is Less likely to be the death of an older chicken, but it does happen.

Some of the Researchers followed by some of us include Karel Schat (Cornell), Dr, Rahouse, Annachiara Greco, Pete Kaiser. Also, Texas A&M seems to be one of those Poultry research universities that put out recent Marek's information. There's one other university that's well known for Marek's research. And the Department of Agriculture seems to have a Dept. as well. It's very interesting to get information from many who do Marek's research.

 

[alibabba]

@alibabba
You are seeing an almost identical sequence of events/progress as one of my girls. 4 months ago I was giving myself a mental deadline to cull her because she was so bad. Now she is fully integrated back into the flock free ranging (it's a large mixed flock with cockerels and feisty leghorns so she had to be strong and confident to feel able to deal with that) and she made it clear she no longer wants the protection of the cage/infirmary.
Putting her outdoors on grass was a dramatic turning point for her too. I would scatter mixed corn in and around the cage so that the rest of the flock came and foraged with her and her pall and that feeling of "competing for food" also seemed to encouraged eating and getting better.

I agree that the actual caring doesn't take that long, but the time spent observing is significant. It has paid off though, as you start to see subtle differences in behaviour and learn to read their body language and understand what they want and what works. I too cannot cull if there is hope.....and these girls are now much more pets than any of the others. I appreciate that they are shedding virus but I could not sacrifice them for the possible benefit of future generations. That said, I seem to have a much less virulent strain of Marek's than many on this thread, so it is easier to accept that risk. If I was having to cull several young birds a week or month, I might have to revise that, but maybe these pullets wouldn't be surviving in that circumstance anyway.

I hope your chickens continue to improve as mine are.

Regards

Barbara

Thank you so much for the huge inspiration.....I feel that if these two have survived this long...it's been well over a month I am sure...I lose track... It must not be viceral...which is odd, because the girl who I had necropsied, was completely fast and viceral. ??? So why aren't these two dead...? This virus is such a puzzle.....did they catch new strain from the crows? Do they actually have encephalitis or lead poisoning....


They both seem to try to survive!!! Even Poppy, if the food and water is right in front of him, with his spasmed neck will carefully peck and peck and peck. I wish... I wish... for a treatment.

I need to stop the virus, then allow nerve regeneration. Or maybe it's allowing the encephalitis to correct.

 

[alibabba]

Well a few years ago, my first 3 just dropped dead over night. They were 8 weeks old and acting normal. Next morning 3 laying there dead and with internal hemorrhage . Then a few more got a one eye infection and died. The rest were put on what I had, Tylan and Sulfadimethoxine. That was a few years ago. The 3 with supposed enteritis fit the symptoms. They had all been in a pen together , I think there was 12 growing out.

Then there were a few over the last few years and 3 sent for necropsy last year that all died from opportunistic bacteria/cocci, and also had mention of Enteritis. Symptoms? Since then, one Polish was acting pokey and lethargic, and wasted, and I gave her those meds for 7 days and she got better and has become a hog and lays eggs. Then my flock of 7 big chickens had been skinny for a long time, and not laying anything for months. I tried everything to fatten them up. Finally I just put them all on those 2 meds in their water for 7 days, and within a month, they were gaining, and the younger ones laid eggs. They are still nice weight. Now I have a group of 7 in the back who are a year old, eat a lot of feed, and got thin. I just finished 5 days of the 2 meds hoping they will now put on some weight. There's no reason for them to be thin.

From reading everything I could get my hands on, I found that there's a major problem in the world with Enteritis since poultry companies are moving to antibiotic free. And what they are finding is that these chickens may get " sub clinical" cocci and bacterial infections, namely Necrotic Enteritis caused by Clostridium Pefergens (sp)., meaning that they are sick , but barely noticeable. And usually the only symptoms are less thrifty, and less eggs. My 3 necropsies had other problems as well, but Enteritis was mentioned in all three. And that goes along with being immunosuppressed.

The biggest symptom I am treating for is wasting or skinniness but eating well. And wormed.
Long story short, since Marek's causes immunosuppression, I feel that's like an open door to sub clinical anything.

thin....when I see a chicken, like looking at a horse or a dog....there is a lustrous roundness (not fat) that some people can not see. They just can't discern. In chickens its the slightly vulturey wing look. Perfectly healthy, eating and romping...but thin...Trouble.

I had a couple like that a month ago. It was cold, they were recent additions. I watched them, I gave everyone good things. All are fit and fat now. And laying daily with a day off here and there as they need to do. Except the 2 in the ICU. My gut tells me they ate something poinsonous.... The roo has had watery (and gassey) diarrhea for a while now. They both have had bright green droppings. Like statue of liberty copper penny green. Both do seem to be resolved by food, so it must be bile. But it is shockily bright....flourescent lime/mint green. The "Avain" oh my, vet was not concerned and levels of b bacteria in fecal were "within normal ranges"...normal for dogs????n On my own...I may take to state vet on Tues if they will see not just want necropsy.

 

[alibabba]

Thank you so much for the huge inspiration.....I feel that if these two have survived this long...it's been well over a month I am sure...I lose track... It must not be viceral...which is odd, because the girl who I had necropsied, was completely fast and viceral. ??? So why aren't these two dead...? This virus is such a puzzle.....did they catch new strain from the crows? Do they actually have encephalitis or lead poisoning....


They both seem to try to survive!!! Even Poppy, if the food and water is right in front of him, with his spasmed neck will carefully peck and peck and peck. I wish... I wish... for a treatment.

I need to stop the virus, then allow nerve regeneration. Or maybe it's allowing the encephalitis to correct.

I feel horrible, today was too cool to put them in their special pen. I didnt think it would be a good idea.

So how bad was your girl? Poppy is hanging by a thread, it seems, he is upright on his hocks occiasonaly stands. not really eating or drinking... He could have tidbitted poisonous plants to lilly, but I would think it would be out of their systems by now.... ferns, daylilly, lily of the valley...

But I have apossum friend that comes around too, and mosquitioes EEE and of course dung eating flies and beetles. Amd of course this all came down when I changed the feed. But no one else is affected at all...

I think I should try a powerful antibioic...I need a vet to prescribe. I will need to tell them which one, because they won't know. Suggestions? This will not be something at the feed store.

 

[alibabba]

I am sorry but some of the information here on the Merecks is incorrect the virus usually shows its ugly head when chicks are between 6 weeks, and 8 weeks of age if not before when chickens reach 6 months they are mature birds and are no longer at risk for the virus, per the DEPT of Agriculture Merecks specialist in VA. That said they can leave behind the virus for up to 6 months, after chickens have had the virus in that area. Only thoroughly disinfecting everything can clean out the virus.
Vaccinate everything then the only risk you have are the young birds getting the virus and shedding it off to others but if they are adult birds around the shedding there is no worries to getting the virus unless their immune systems are already compromised.

I beleive I read, and it is sort of intuitive to herpesvrus that as a general behavior go dormant. If a bird is not ill, I feel from studies I have read and from other behaviors of the virus in humans, that while dormant, virus may not be shed. Just saying... when a child has chicken pox (I did) I can live and not shed chicken pox virus. When I have immune and stress issues, I get shingles. Same virus coming out through nerves (ouch!!!) . Also only slightly contagiious.

Not that I am a vet, pathologist, in any way shape or form. I like to read and get to the truth;