Old and Rare Breeds

[saladin]

For those of you interested in old and rare breeds of fowl: whether it be breeding, locating stock, or just an interesting read.

Many today refer to heritage or heirloom breeds of fowl. Nothing in the world wrong with those words; they are real eye-cathchers, but they are not well defined. Many times they are refering to Modern Breeds that have been created since 1900.

There are truly Ancient Breeds of fowl that are included in our APA Standard that need breeders across the country. These would include:

Asil
Dorkings
Malays
Old English (Large Fowl)
Nankins
Pyncheons

There are also many others that are not presently in the Standard.

Further, there are many Old Breeds which are excellent utility fowl that need help as well. These would include:

Creves
LaFleche
Houdan
Java
Polish
Red Caps
Shamo
Sussex

There are others too, but you get the pictures.

Some of the Modern Breeds that are in need of breeders include:

Cubalaya
Delaware
Holland


etc.

I'm in hopes that you'll write about the breed you keep or ask questions before you acquire stock.

Where a written standard for your breed of choice does not exist in the US, hopefully we will be able to provide you with one from the country of origin.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Oh! That answered the other question I had!

Which was, how do you figure out what to select for, if you want temperament, production, and SOP. So, you think go for SOP first.

I was thinking that that was maybe the benefit of having multiple pens of the same breed. Maybe half of the pens could be for SOP, and the other half for temperament and production, and then combine the two once you are close to your goals.

You have to be careful with temperament. "Bad temperament" can often emerge from inappropriate husbandry. There's a learning curve for everyone, and everyone at some point does something that makes their birds crazy. However, with practice one comes to recognize the screamers. You might be with a dozen birds and one or two of them are just insane: scratching, screaming, flapping, going nuts. If a majority of the other birds are calmer, more even keeled, then it is a reflection on that bird. If all of your birds are doing this, it might be a reflection of floor space or the way you act around the birds.

Our Anconas would be wild, and have the flying ability to be wild, if I went rushing about the place, flailing about, chasing them trying to pick them up, etc... Instead, I walk gently around them speaking softly. When they start going out of doors in the morning, I start by opening the door and sitting a few good feet away, making them deal with my presence while exiting. Gradually, I move closer and closer over the course of several mornings until after a few weeks I'll sit in the door and make them walk over my lap to exit the building. I throw the wheat as a treat, and they come running to see what I have. Now when I go to pick them up, many will assume the submission posture, and I pick them up easily--remember these are the horrible, flighty Anconas--rubbish. However, if something startles me and I move uncharacteristically quickly, they scatter, which is a good thing. If there's a non-Game classs of birds that can take care of itself, it's the Mediterranean breeds, along with the Hamburgs, Campines, and Lakenvelders.

To breed for SOP and production: Hatch in early spring. Track weights cull anything that shows any lack of thrift at all. Cull any defect the moment you see it. Do not make excuses. At 6 to 7 months old, weigh your birds, take strong note of type and then color. Reserve your finalists. Have more finalists that you need brood fowl. In mid/late January, go over your birds again. Weigh them, palpate for indicators of laying, and set up your breedings.

Don't breed from low quality birds just for numbers. Pair up your birds like a rabbitry, or perhaps in trios, don't add extra hens unless they are the true peers of the other females. Try to work with a minimum of four males. Toe punch everything.

Notice that with this rhythm, you are following growth and weight right from the start. At 6-ish months you're culling to the Standard, and in mid/late winter, when production is the hardest, you're seeing who's producing. This way you develop SOP quality birds that exude productivity, size, and thrift. If you don't select to the SOP, you're just reinventing hatchery birds, and they already do that better than you.

This, though, is why breeding too many breeds is deleterious to a strong breeding program. For every breed you raise it requires either a duplication of infrastructure and effort or a halving of output per breed. In the former you slowly, unperceptively develop a hatchery

that costs tens of thousands of dollars

, and hope your spouse will just keep loving you anyways

. In the second scenario you breed for years and years and get no where

eventually loosing heart and deciding you're not good at chickens

. If you choose one breed

and start attending shows where you meet important mentors

, you eventually just get to relax

and enjoy the rewards

of the order you've created

while your peers are left wondering why it doesn't go their way

and you struggle not to gloat

so that folks keep talking to you

. (Really that last bit was just to use a disco rabbit

)

It would seem I'm having too much fun and should go out and shovel the growing coop I'll apparently do just about anything to avoid. Honestly...chickens....geesh...

 

[fowlman01]

The thing is, the modern Sussex is basically a re-creation anyway. Don't they know the history of their own breed? You can't cure stupid.

Stupid usually cures itself when they go on to some other pursuit, but in the meantime they hurt whatever breed they are involved in.

Walt

 

[bahman]

Hi judi
of course
Azerbaijan marandi very old breeds in Azerbaijan and worlds
HISTORY: orgin breeds Azerbaijan marand region dates back 16th century
appearance: clour black rank with green reflections ears:white feet :filled with leegs feather eggs: 200-150 in years puberty:60 5,5 weeks weight: male 3-2.5 kilo
famale 2 2.2 kilo clor eggs:light brown very resistant to cold and snow (mountian cilimates)
thay are very beautiful birds but unfortunately this breed extinction (( destruction)) without being registered in world ploutry breeds !!!

we are many have tried to rescued from the danger of total destruction.
















thans your comments

 

[bahman]

hi
i think so . they are not in the us.
thank you for your guide and your attention my friend.

 

[Wisher1000]

I started with hatchery stock, quite by accident. It was those birds that I fell in love with. They were far from these birds, in quality. That was over four years ago. These are still far from where they need to be, and where I hope to take them. Those original hatchery Campines had green legs (supposed to be leaden blue) bay colored eyes (supposed to be dark brown to black) as well as many other issues. Still, they were better layers than the ones I have now. My breeder stock came from Duane Urch and Cathy Gleason. As far as I could determine, these two, one woman in California, and a few that have only hatchery birds were my only options for obtaining breeders, and believe me, I searched long and hard. It would not surprise me if my flock is now the largest in the US of Silver Campines. The Golden Campines are more popular, but still rare.

I have some of my first 'chicks' that are at the POL now and I hope they will be better layers. I was telling DH yesterday that production is one of the things I hope to improve in my line and that during the early 1900's when they enjoyed much popularity, they were known as "The Everyday Layer." I'm not sure he heard me as his eyes immediately glaze over when I start talking about the chickens.

ETA: I quizzed DH and he was listening! He remembered the nickname with no hints from me! Sorry, Honey!

Thank you for the compliment, and I agree they are "pretty little things!" I want to get them up to (and maybe a little beyond) standard size but that is only 6.5lbs for the cocks and 5lbs for the hens. I have noticed that some of the birds I have raised this year are solid and heavy in the hand while others are lightweight and fragile feeling. I am, of course, using the more solid birds and learning more and more every day. One of the main things that I enjoy about them is their personalities. Most people call them flighty, but I just find them busy. They remind me of bumble bees. They are always busy and darting here and there. They are not interested in being still, caught, held, or cuddled, but will fly up on me if I have treats. I am having so much fun with these birds.....

 

[saladin]

So many people misunderstand: The trouble is not at all with the Standard.

The trouble is actually 4-fold (imo):

1. Judging is done today by comparison instead of scoring as mentioned in the Standard. (Of course, this is because we the exhibitors prefer one day shows and like to be finished by 3pm).

2. Fad breeding instead of breeding to the Standard.

3. Exhibitors are attached emotionally to their birds and often fail to see faults.

4. Judges are human and will be drawn to breeds they prefer or will turn the show into a mere feather show instead of following the Standard themselves.


With this stated, I think it always best to breed to the Standard. You might not always win, but you can feel proud of the results you achieve and the birds you present.

 

[saladin]

Some important things to remember when breeding birds:

1. Good breeder birds may not be good show birds (and vice versa).
2. There's more to it than just a 'male line' or 'female line.' There are also birds that show well as stags/pullets and other lines that only show well as cocks/hens; still others that are fine either way.
3. The real key to quality lines means hatching in quanity. (There are lots of folks on BYC that do not agree with this. They are simply WRONG; no ifs, ands or buts about it. There are plenty of things in which there are varied opinions. This is NOT one of them).
4. You have to learn your line to really learn how to cull properly. This takes time. Always cull with the Standard in hand, but time and knowing a line helps as much as anything.

More comments on #3.
I am absolutely amazed at how many people get offended and upset when you mention this on this particular form. I've never understand why people get upset with the truth. It is just beyond me.

 

[fowlman01]

Obviously there are some experts here that really know all about the old breeds.

On the theory that modern breeding from old breeds to produce higher performing
though more fragile types that are less hardy, less self sufficient, require more
attention and drugs etc ( kind of like race horses compared to donkeys )....

I'd like suggestions of breeds that I can turn loose in Atlanta GA inside
a 3 acre fenced in area with a 1 acre pond with 15 ducks and a variety
of bushes and trees. I am in an urban area and dont really see foxes
and coyotes but I'd like to think these chickens would be flyers and roost
in the trees. My ducks are self sufficient though I do feed chicken scratch
on the coldest of winter nights.

For conversation purposes, If I could also help perpetuate an old rare
heritage breed etc. I would spend the extra money and limit the birds
to just the one type to prevent interbreeding between types that is so prevalent
with my ducks. Just like the muscovy ducks are the better survivors ( because
they are closest to their wild ancestors ) I'm thinking there must be similar
chicken breeds that are closer to their wild ancestors as well.

I had a friend who suggested guineas when I described my intentions but
to me chickens would be far more interesting. Their only requirement is
to provide entertainment and survival... I dont need eggs or meat etc.

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Maybe you have been reading too many posts on BYC. Real breeders make real strong birds.....and usually don't medicate. There is no reason that any breed can't be strong if they are bred correctly. If these heritage birds don't perform they will die out. So IMO this is not a donkey/racehorse situation with accomplished breeders. The birds that aren't disease resistant and don't perform well end up planted in the garden here.

Roosting in trees is just inconvenient to racoons......they will push them off the tree and kill them in the dark on the ground. You may think you don't have some of these predators, but once you put some birds on the ground you will find out that you probably have a lot of them around. I have something killing 25 lb geese and I thought it couldn't be a raccoon....but guess what....it is. The time is correct in this photo, but the year etc I don't set. Now that I know what it is I should have it by tomorrow morning. you need to have some kind of security if you raise chickens....you can't count on them getting away from a predator.



Walt

 

[saladin]

More:
OSU,

My thoughts in putting forward these categories was as follows:

1. The word 'heritage' as been used to the point of meaninglessness.
2. The criteria of the ALBC for 'heritage' is utterly ridiculous. By stating that a bird had to be in the APA Standard before the mid-20th century leaves out some of the oldest known breeds in the world such as the Asil which has been documented in the United States since at least the 1830s.
3. Poultry folks should learn to follow basic historic periods instead of one generic catch word that explains nothing.
4. The categories should be broad and simple.
5. Documentation is a necessity for accurately placing a fowl in a category.
6. Fowl can be moved from one category to another as better information comes forward.
7. Discussion among knowledgeable individuals for the placement of fowl is the ideal route to a better understanding of our birds. This takes away any type of dictatorial approach as is apparent in the ALBC plan (which was invented by one man: Frank Reese).