Old and Rare Breeds

[fowlman01]

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Hey Walt,
Those are nice illustrations and I think there going to look nice in the new standard.

Chris

Thanks!

w.

 

[Schweiger]

I see great progress in the discussion of a time line for the age of a breed but What about how rare a breed is. Do we all agree to the ALBC's definition? here it is by the way.


Poultry breeds on the ALBC Conservation Priority List generally conform to certain genetic and numerical parameters.

1. The breed is from one of the four traditional U.S. poultry species (chickens, ducks, geese, and turkeys).

2. A bantam breed may be listed if there is no large fowl counterpart.

3. The breed census satisfies numerical guidelines:

Critical: Fewer than 500 breeding birds in the United States, with five or fewer primary breeding flocks (50 birds or more), and estimated global population less than 1,000.

Threatened: Fewer than 1,000 breeding birds in the United States, with seven or fewer primary breeding flocks, and estimated global population less than 5,000.

Watch: Fewer than 5,000 breeding birds in the United States, with ten or fewer primary breeding flocks, and estimated global population less than 10,000. Also included are breeds with genetic or numerical concerns or limited geographic distribution.

Recovering: Breeds that were once listed in another category and have exceeded Watch category numbers but are still in need of monitoring.

Study: Breeds that are of interest but either lack definition or lack genetic or historical documentation.

4. The breed is a true genetic breed (when mated together, it reproduces the breed type.)

5. The breed has had an established and continuously breeding population in North America since 1925. Or, if imported or developed since 1925,

The foundation stock is no longer available.
Must meet numeric guidelines for inclusion.
Must have at least five breeders in different locations in the United States.
The global population is threatened and the United States population is making a contribution to conservation of the breed.
Breeds not meeting all these criteria may be placed in the "Study" category and monitored.

What about the Rare Breeds Survival Trust that covers all of the U.K. ? Their criteria is different.

They have only 32 breeds on their list while we have 49, not counting the 5 in the watch list! For an example their are only 200 Sebrites in the country of origin while there are less than 5,000 in the US.

What I am trying to say is SOME rare birds here are'nt rare elsewhere and SOME rare birds elsewhere are'nt rare here. I know it would be hard to create a world rarity list so what do we go by? For example if the Nankin bantam becomes extinct in the U.K. We would still have around 500 birds and other countries would still have some. Another example would be if all of the U.S. faverolles would go extinct the U.K. has more than 1,000.

So.....how Rare is Rare?


P.S. The U.K. is Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and Wales, as well as all the other smaller isles.

P.S.S. Sorry for the long post.

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

i think we have to go on just the birds in the USA... a lot of the breeds that are in both the UK and the USA are almost 2 different breeds like the English and American Orp's... and even tho we can still import now at some time in the future they might stop it all together so we cant count on being able to import them forever...

 

[buffalogal]

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And a lot of Old Timers seriously refer to Dominiques and Barred Rocks and any other bird with "stripes" as a "Dominecker". Just because someone is "old", doesn't mean they're right about everything, and just because something was printed a long time ago doesn't make it correct either. Remember, more than one edition of the SoP was way off about the correct weight of Dominiques, until breeders banded together and demanded that it be changed.

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Why are you quoting from an obviously dated article on the UK Leghorn club website, when you yourself posted to someone on the BYC less than two years ago that the SoP listed bantam Leghorns as "barred". IOW, you already know that in this country, the correct term is not "Dominique". The article you linked to isn't dated, but I'm guessing it's well over 70 years ago, simply because the author mentions that he has been familiar with Cuckoo Leghorns since shortly after they made their appearance in that country, (the UK) which was in 1884. I mean, just how old are these"old timers" you're talking about?

 

[Chris09]

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What do you think the ideal weight for a American Dominiques Rooster should be then?

Bullalogal,
You asked about the Dominique pattern on other breeds and I gave you some information on it and if that information is not new enough of good enough then I would suggest that you do some research on the pattern. I would also suggest that you do some of you looking in older book, older show document, and on Gamefowl sites and forms.
When and if you do the research I believe that you will find at least two other breeds of chickens other than the American Dominique and not including Gamefowl that carry the name "Dominique" (nothing more just Dominique).

One was a breed that was on Rabbit Island, near New Orleans, La. another was brought here to America from England by Puritans. Now there may be a third but I haven't found much information about it but that Dr. J. C. Bennett suggests that a Dominique breed was introduced into America by the French.

Now as for Gamefowl there are at least 10 lines of American Gamefowl that carry the word "Dominique" (Dom) in there name and that isn't even getting into the Spanish and other fowl.

Chris

 

[saladin]

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The real difficulty with the ALBC's definition has to do with their data. If anyone has read the book by Marjorie Bender, which is the basis for the determination of rarity, then one would find that almost all the data collected came from Hatcheries.

Thus, birds that most of us would not even consider true to breed are included in the numbers.

I do, however, applaud the ALBC's efforts to at least try to gather the information.

 

[buffalogal]

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What size does the current SoP say they should be Chris? Do you think it has ALWAYS been that weight? Think again.

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Oh dear. The admonition that I need to "do the research". It's like telling someone to "read a book", or "get a clue." Funny how you most often see that kind of uncalled for condescension when someone is asked about a statement they have made and are unable to back up. You are the person who wrote "Dominique Leghorns", and successfully dug around until you unearthed one decades old article written for the British Leghorn club that said that in America, they were called "Dominique Leghorns". But you already know they are not called that in the country, as you were telling someone they are "Barred leghorns" according to the SoP.
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I wouldn't doubt that a bit. At one time, someone was selling some variety of fluffy chicken and calling them a"Kiwi"; people say all kinds of things. What does conjecture about the origin of the birds used in the creation of the Dominique have to do with anything? I could tell you some people think they owe their hardy and self sufficient natures to having originated in the slaves' quarters in Virginia, and were called Dominique because of the state's nickname: "Old Dominion". That's an equally interesting theory, but just like telling me about Puritans, it means nothing beyond pleasant, idle speculation.

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I have to tell you, nothing gamefowl breeders do surprises me, certainly not what they name their birds.

BTW, I'm glad you reminded me; I'm still waiting to see pictures of those Dominique Spanish and Dominique Italians you mentioned.

 

[Chris09]

buffalogal,
My 2001 and 1915 both say
Cocks 7 Hens 5 Cockerels 6 Pullets 4 Now what year/s was the weight different?

Sow how many years have you Bred, Raised, and Shown the American Dominique?
Chris

 

[spartacus_63]

Thus, birds that most of us would not even consider true to breed are included in the numbers.

This is quite the bold statement. Assuming that a majority think as you do about purity. I for one do not consider a pure bred bird less of a breed. You may say it is not Standard Bred and I would not argue, but a breed is a breed.

In my humble opinion there are two reasons the "Heritage" breeds are rare; first being the market. Breeding birds not at the top of the production chain was less than optimally profitable. Second, the standards folks were shooting for were Perfection vs. utility.

When breeding for the show, it appears to me that the number of culled birds per hatch is very high. If it is so hard to breed to the standard, maybe it is a poor standard for the breed.

I am a believer and practitioner of selective breeding, but I place performance before beauty. I want happy birds not necessarily beauty queens.

In the days of old a Cock Fighter wouldn't breed from the losers.​

 

[Pyncheon guy]

Going by the ALBC categories.... If the Pyncheon breed was recognized by their criteria....it would be on the "Critical" list.....