Old and Rare Breeds

[fowlman01]

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I have some of Julia's Shamo's through Suzann Chung. I don't think there are too many orientals that consistantly breed true to color. My black Asils breed pretty true, but the color is not recognized by the APA. I show them anyway.

Note: The Wheaten Malay and Shamo males are not recognized by the APA. So far no one has been able to get enough true Wheaten males together for a qualifying meet.

My wheaten KO Shamo's breed true, but that seems to be the exception.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

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Which is why I said there are colors and they do breed true. Yes, I've heard of a lot of odd colors popping up, in fact most people will admit even Wheaten can throw some random Dark Shamos, but in general it does breed true most of the time. My Shamo pair came out 100% Wheaten along with the other hatch mates from the breeder's pair, which were also Wheaten (and barred Wheaten) and I'm pretty sure mine too will throw even more Wheatens and Barred Wheatens.

Agreed 100% that Barring is not naturally a Shamo color though.

Also agreed that color doesn't matter that much. With just about any gamefowl, it is the behavior that takes importance over anything else. Next is simply the bloodlines, especially with American Gamefowl.

After you raise some I think you might change your position on them breeding true.

Walt

 

[hallerlake]

If I understand what I've read correctly, they are all reconstructions, which doesn't mean they don't have original Brabanter genes. It would depend on how one reconstructed them. If one took birds that originally derived from Brabanters, and bred the non Brabanter traits out of them, there would be original genetic material (along with some remaining non Brabanter genes). Whether the ones in the USA were reconstructed here or abroad, I do not know. I've also read that HandH poultry has had them longer than anyone else in the USA. Again, I don't know if that's accurate.


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I'm not sure if the question as to where to find Brabanters is answered later in the thread (I"m reading a lot here to catch up), but Ideal offers both varieties. Now, are they authentique or re-creations? Who knows.

 

[Illia]

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My thoughts exactly. If there's something I really notice with Wheaten males, it is that they have way too little red on the shoulder, too much red in the secondaries, and not enough along the back. At least, the Wheatens I've seen. Honestly I think there's a lot of e+ floating around in Wheaten Shamos.

 

[fowlman01]

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My thoughts exactly. If there's something I really notice with Wheaten males, it is that they have way too little red on the shoulder, too much red in the secondaries, and not enough along the back. At least, the Wheatens I've seen. Honestly I think there's a lot of e+ floating around in Wheaten Shamos.

There is a lot of everything floating around in Wheaten Shamo's.

Walt

 

[pride&joy]

Ah love this thread, nice to see familiar folks here. I must admit that one of the things I like about the Shamos is that color is an after thought. I have shamo fowl that I have aquired from 3 diferent and to my best knowledge separate sources. My plan was to breed withing the respected lines this year. As to evaluate what they have or lack and them use the other lines to cross with. With my Shamos , Assils and Spanish games attitude is all. I grew up around my grandfathers Spanish games and stories about my great grandfathers fowl and color was never a consideration other than to identify the bird. Though I could remember those old timers recalling from memory every kind of cock a particular hen has produced (but I digress). Here are picks of some of the Shamos also my Pakistany Assil and May-lay.
Shamo

g]

g]

g]

May-lay

g]

Assil

mg]

 

[pride&joy]

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I don't know anything about Shamos; are they all natural beeders, or is AI commonly used to insure fertile eggs? If you had Shamos running loose on your farm, would the hens hide and hatch and raise a clutch of eggs on their own?

I have a Shamo hen with 7 chicks running the yard right now. Great mom

 

[saladin]

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My thoughts exactly. If there's something I really notice with Wheaten males, it is that they have way too little red on the shoulder, too much red in the secondaries, and not enough along the back. At least, the Wheatens I've seen. Honestly I think there's a lot of e+ floating around in Wheaten Shamos.

There is a lot of everything floating around in Wheaten Shamo's.

Walt

I've had Shamos for a number of years now; though I have less now than ever because I decided to concentrate on the Blacks (Manuel Reynolds old line that come originally from Earl Ashby of WA).

Anyway, I'll be honest that I really don't know what y'all are talking about on this one. What the Standard calls a BBR Shamo came come from either a BBR hen or a Wheaten hen (per the Standard). Actually, both hens are variations on the wheaten pattern: one being dark wheaten and one being light wheaten. However, the males, whether Wheaten or BBR both appear as BBR.

It is like the Cubalaya. They are listed as BBR, but they are actually wheaten (the hens being cinnamon and not stippled).

 

[fowlman01]

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There is a lot of everything floating around in Wheaten Shamo's.

Walt

I've had Shamos for a number of years now; though I have less now than ever because I decided to concentrate on the Blacks (Manuel Reynolds old line that come originally from Earl Ashby of WA).

Anyway, I'll be honest that I really don't know what y'all are talking about on this one. What the Standard calls a BBR Shamo came come from either a BBR hen or a Wheaten hen (per the Standard). Actually, both hens are variations on the wheaten pattern: one being dark wheaten and one being light wheaten. However, the males, whether Wheaten or BBR both appear as BBR.

It is like the Cubalaya. They are listed as BBR, but they are actually wheaten (the hens being cinnamon and not stippled).

When judges judge they can only go by the color the bird appears. We have no way of knowing what really made up the bird. The Wheaten females in the Shamo's is different than the wheaten in my KO Shamo's (which look like the typical OE wheaten). Many people enter BBR looking orientals as wheaten (males).

Walt

 

[saladin]

Ok Walt, I'm following you a little better now. Yes, I've seen folks do that with Orientals (entering stags and cocks as Wheaten instead of BBR). I figure they are either new to showing or new to Orientals. I always go and talk to them in person. I try to explain that though the color is genetically Wheaten the Standard calls it Black Breasted Red; therefore, they should enter them as such.

I don't know about Ko's but the wheaten in Shamos, Malays, and Asil should look nothing like the wheaten in Games (as expressed in the female). The Cubalaya wheaten should also look different than the Games, but our Standard calls it Black Breasted Red.

Both Fred Jeffery and Brian Reeder have written on the wheaten color of Orientals. I'm sure you are familiar with both of these too. Jeffery is easier for my limited mind to understand. lol.


What I have seen a couple of times is someone with an Asil (BBR) that matches the colors on a BBR Game (cockbird). This is all wrong and usually tells of an infusion of Game somewhere in the line as the Asil, Malay and Shamo BBR are supposed to be very dark hackled not the orangey-red (my words not the Standard) coloring of a Game.