Old and Rare Breeds

[fowlman01]

Here are some of my baby Shamo's
Blacks

Pr of darks

Black bantams I am playing with.....the male didn't want to stretch his neck out. They are really bantams, not just small LF.

And lastly an Asil head from one of my blacks for Saladin to comment on. I can't get a good pic of the body, but accidently got this after I cropped it.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

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There are some very well known oriental breeders here in CA that enter strictly by how the bird appears....to them. They fool a lot of judges, because unfortunatley a lot of judges don't know orientals. I am just learning myself, but I have been around chickens long enough to know when someone is "fudging". They also win bantam Asil awards with small Asil LF. Two years ago the AOCCL Asil and the AOSB Asil were only two pens away from each other and they were both the same size.

Two weeks from now at the Pacific Poultry Breeders show in Stockton, CA there will be well over 100 orientals shown. I will take some pictures.

Walt

 

[hallerlake]

Ideal does have both, but only males. What would I do with a dozen roos and no pullets?

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I'm not sure if the question as to where to find Brabanters is answered later in the thread (I"m reading a lot here to catch up), but Ideal offers both varieties. Now, are they authentique or re-creations? Who knows.

 

[Illia]

Wow, after seeing that pullet I am definitely going to get some darks too. . .

 

[DaveK]

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Of course it's not a joke. Big Smile It can be a very useful system when working up or pioneering a strain and by the same token can help greatly in maintaining an established strain while still allowing for modifications and improvements. I think the reason it works well is that the breeder ends up with a maximum number of combinations from however many breeders are available. You eat the combinations that don't work but hopefully, as in all breeding, got some good ones, maybe even surprisingly so, that you go on with. Darrel Sheraw has used this system with Call ducks in conjunction with very carefully selected matings designed to hold certain families together. The mindset of the breeder determines how well it works based on the results but that goes for any system used. Actually just remembered that John Castagnetti used to do this with the Cubalayas. Not on a massive scale but there'd be two or three groups of hens and he'd just keep sliding different males in and out of the pens.

 

[DaveK]

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LOVE!!! that headshot.

 

[DaveK]

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I think all of the above factor into the one cock business. I have run in to folks who enjoy a breed but are limited as to room, time or whatever so they keep a mating and some youngsters around. They know that what they are doing isn't sustainable over the long haul but they are having fun and getting to look at something they like. There are those also who state that they can raise all they need for sale or themselves from one cock so why feed more than that? Not to be totally offensive but to me this is simply propagating and not breeding. Breeding to me is an activity that will hopefully benefit the breed, both in my hands and others, and is a project to be looked at from the long view. If we don't want to crash and burn ( some say "hit the wall") and have a real interest in improving and maintaining a breed we need to keep at least the major building blocks if not all the pieces to the puzzle. I recently had an email from an excellent, long term breeder who has some old lines of his favorites. He mentioned that at times he has gone through culling down to just a few of the very best from an exhibition point of view and called it almost having culled himself into extinction. Not just lower numbers as he didn't get that bad but culling out genetic parts and pieces that were needed to maintain the more finished end products that could be shown. I may be odd in my ideas but if starting out with grown stock in something new I have always wanted at least two males if not more. Those who are really interested in breeding along these lines should hunt up some of the writings of Charles Craver, breeder of Arabian horses of the Davenport bloodlines. He was considered unusual as he kept far more stallions compared to mares than most would. But he matched mares individually and didn't just make up a group or two and use a stallion with each bunch. Again, even though a very densely linebred group of animals, the mating system that allowed more use of males than was usual also allowed a lot of combinations and things to be going on. To the point that families developed within the primary family. Fascinating if you like that kind of thing and besides; it really does work. I know that I don't want to get to the point where I am beginning to be pleased with my work only to HAVE to hunt up something to put in that may tear apart what has started to be built.

 

[DTchickens]

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Looks good brother, I do see the resemblance to Miss Julia's stock.. I'd really like to get some new blood from someone who has it once my finances get better.

-Daniel

 

[exop]

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Not having games, I've had the luxury of being able to keep males in bachelor pens, away from the hens. They form their own stable society; fights are rare, and mostly just display. I've segregated them by temperament: a pen of mellow light- and heavy-breed roosters with a few high-strung light-breed roosters who were being bullied elsewhere, and a pen of top-of-the-pecking order light-breed roosters (read: bullies). A few others who are friendly, not too heavy, and especially solicitous toward the hens are allowed to live with them full time when I'm not trying to breed.

Some more reasons which I think influence people to keep a single cock, rather than several:
* Noise, or fear of having multiple birds crowing (it's not so bad! It's rather musical.)
* Peer pressure, or something like it - it's such an established tradition to have a breeding pair or trio, and to "line breed" if one breeds at all, that people think you're somehow undisciplined if you have a bunch of roosters. Printed advice on how to breed often contains wording like "keep only the best rooster, and breed from him".
* Not having a well-known pattern to follow, for managing multiple rooster breedings. (This is related to the "peer pressure" problem). With one rooster, you don't have to think about what to do next... you just keep breeding him to his own children, and his children's children's children, until the eggs won't hatch anymore. Then you buy a new rooster.

...I know, I'm exaggerating for effect.
* Not wanting to have to deal with inter-rooster conflicts or housing arrangements. Which as I've said, need not always be a problem, with non-game breeds.

Best - exop

 

[saladin]

Walt,

I like the Asil head, but would love to see the body! lol.

I took Champion Large Fowl at the South Carolina State Fair with a Dark Asil cock. If memory serves me correctly there were about 400 Large Fowl. I was thrilled. I'll see if I can find a picture to post of him.

I really like those Black Shamos! As I stated earlier I am working with the Blacks from Manuel Reynolds old line. There are not very many of his left at all. I'm not going to say that I'm the only person with them, but I might be.