Older hen lethargic, tipsy tail feathers droopy - update

[OrpingtonManor]

If you felt around on her abdomen near her vent, and you didn't feel any hard egg mass, then she probably wasn't egg bound. However, if her abdomen felt swollen, soft, squishy, then she was retaining fluid in her abdominal cavity, called ascites, probably from being an internal layer, or some other sort of oviduct malfunction. If she was an internal layer, then you could have treated with antibiotics, but ultimately she would have died anyway unless you could afford to give her an hysterectomy.

Your bird sounds like she had egg yolk peritonitis, since you are describing the yellow looking poo. Probably an septic egg yolk was inside her.

I just had a bird die from this on Thanksgiving weekend after spending more than 5 weeks in the house, going through massive antibiotics, and even an expensive avian vet visit. The vet said that these birds have less than 25% chance of living, even with antibiotics. My bird was only 18 months old. While it is possible that there was nothing that could be done for these birds, because they have a calcium problem, it is possible to contribute to it by not feeding them adequate calcium. This was the case with my bird. Free choice oyster shell, and other calcium sources, as well as being careful not to feed too many greens that restrict calcium uptake, like spinach, are dietary recommendations to limit problems.

dlhunicorn has some excellent threads on this subject, if you search on her topics or posts.

So good that you are still trying to find answers, even though your girl has died. You're a good chicken mom!!

 

[FiveUrbanGirls]

The information you gave was/is really helpful, thank you. I will read through dlhunicorn threads for more info.
Elvira's' underside, around her vent and down her back end did feel squishy, like there was a lot of fluid in there, however I'm unsure because she died in the night some time and was stiff when I removed her from the coop. I didn't feel anything hard in there.

 

[OrpingtonManor]

this is a link to my thread. sorry it's so long. only read it if you think it might be helpful.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=258560

 

[hinkjc]

I'm so sorry to hear you lost her.

Most times they don't show us any symptoms until their time is almost up. Chickens are tough cookies and are good at hiding problems. Good for you for searching to find answers. Many times egg issues cannot be resolved and this is typically the way it ends.

 

[FiveUrbanGirls]

Thank you both for trying to help me.
Stephanie, you did so much for your girl! I only wish I had had the chance to help Elvira. I was oblivious to her sufferings until just before her passing...

I read through your thread and one thing you wrote struck me, it was about changes in food; crumbs vs. pellets - "They starved themselves, messing up their protein and calcium levels, with the resulting shell-less eggs starting this peritonitis. Paris might have been more prone, but starvation was like the nail in the coffin."-

I got all five girls from my neighbor, who feed crumbles. The first 1 -2 bags of feed I gave them were pellets. It took awhile to get through those bags because (what I now know from your thread) they didn't know it was food. They were free ranging a lot during that time (summer) and I fed them corn, oats, and yogurt once a day because it was exciting to spoil them with treats. But it was just that, treats, and not enough for proper nutrition. My neighbor was puzzled that she wasn't laying, she had never not laid for them let alone shell less eggs or soft eggs.

I think the pellets could be the answer to the start of Elvira's troubles. Does that sound right?

Hope that all makes sense, it's late and my brain is already half asleep!

 

[dlhunicorn]

my feed store (the only one in this area) does not make a crumble type feed here for layers and I always have trouble when my birds need to switch to a layer ration. I fixed the problem by adding just enough cooked human oatmeal (cooked in water not milk nor anything else added to it > I just pop it in the microwave for a couple minutes till a really gooey consistency) to their feed till it cakes a bit together... I also (in the beginning) add some of the crumbles to that (I offer oyster shell and live culture yogurt daily free choice so I am sure they have a couple different sources for sufficient calcium). This way it is difficult for them to scratch out the "goodies" (my layer ration is formulated with pellets and grains). You might try this ... an added bonus in the winter (when they eat less anyway > not a good thing< ) is that they get more in each "bite"

 

[OrpingtonManor]

Diana, thanks for adding your info to this thread. FiveUrbanGirls, I'm glad you got something useful out of my bird's thread. I think you are definitely on to something. Pellets v. crumbles can be an important detail.

Diana, what you're saying about making a sticky mash with oatmeal is something I stumbled on a few weeks ago. You are cooking their feed with a little oatmeal. I hadn't tried that, but was simply making a small amount of cooked oatmeal for stickiness and warmth, and then topping it with high protein grains. I could be doing this with their feed, or ground shell as well. I started doing this to encourage a late moulter to eat. It worked like a charm.

FiveUrbanGirls, you could start to make a mash of their feed and some oatmeal, like Diana does, and sprinkle it with pellets, if that is what you need to feed. They will eventually figure it out, but at least they won't be nutritionally deficient while they do it.

Good luck! We're glad you've found us.

 

[FiveUrbanGirls]

I busied the toddler with a craft project so I could make a quick reply!

I forgot to add that after the 1 bag of pellets I switched over to the crumble (I think I only went through one pellet bag, not two). I mixed the pellets with water and yogurt when I saw that they weren't eager to eat the pellets, but that was more towards the end of the bag, if my memory serves me right. :} They've been on crumble since August.

Orp - I also noted that Elvira had the same purplish comb that Paris had, their poops were also similar; runny yellowish with a bit of green matter, and they both laboured with breath towards the end. I don't really understand how a depletion in nutrition would cause the onset of internal laying though. Any thoughts?

Diana- thanks for that bit of feed info. About how much of the oatmeal should I give the girls (4), and should I give it two them twice a day?

I started with Yogurt and flax this morning and will continue giving that combo.

Thanks chicken mammas!
Kari

 

[OrpingtonManor]

Kari, I'm including a link to a video of the dissection of a hen's reproductive tract.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/v...-reproductive-tract-of-a-mature-hen-221261_2/

What I gather from the various info sources I read and viewed, was that the muscles of the uterus in a hen's reproductive tract need to have a shell to push against when the hen lays an egg. This part I know.

You asked if I had any thoughts as to why this affected them, and so these are only my own conclusion. (Diana, do you have any thoughts on this to either back me or refute me?) I think that yolks can back up in the reproductive tract when the calcium and protein levels are inadequate to form the albumen and shell properly. As the yolks are released from the mature follicles every 26 hours or so, this can create quite a back-up, and the yolks can become septic, that is, laden with pathogenic bacteria. (This is different than an internal layer that simply has a reproductive system that creates yolks that miss the infundibulum and are released into the peritoneal cavity.) This is my own theory, and may not have any grounding in reality. I'm stressing this because I want you to take this with a grain of salt. Do more research if you want to pass this info on.

I do know that my own bird had a grossly abnormal reproductive tract, and had been laying soft-shelled and shell-less eggs in the months before she molted and then died. The vet felt that her dietary issues were a contributing factor.

The breathing issue that Paris (and Elvira) had was because they have respiratory tissue down in the abdomen as well as what we traditionally call the lungs. This was explained to me by the vet. Here is a link to Diana's collected information that shows this in diagrams. http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=photos&action=display&num=1158071735
These sacs get compressed by all the fluid. The heart works so much harder when air exchange and circulation are compromised in this way. The color of the comb is an indication of the state of the heart. Red combs are good. Purple, gray, dusky, dark combs are bad signs.

Hopefully this will give you a start into why the diet has such an effect on egg laying.

Steffanie

 

[dlhunicorn]

You are cooking their feed with a little oatmeal....

perhaps I was unclear... the only thing I cook is the oatmeal ...i then add enough feed to the oatmeal to that it sticks together somewhat (is "clumpy" ) but is not a solid block that the birds will have to really peck at to loosen. oh dear I have to reboot my puter ... (updates) will be back in a bit.​