Orange Mottled Chicken!

[alohachickens]

Hey Tim!

Okay, I went to "Feathersite" and read what it had to say about autosexing red birds. I think I maybe am starting to understand this maybe a little? Tell me if I've got it or not!

So, it seems like while the idea of first getting red/white/black mottled, and then using a solid buff breed to get rid of the black areas may work - eventually - but it would be much harder due to other genes floating around there, and this suggestion would be a kind of shortcut?

Quote:


Okay, here's a quote I read from Feathersite about it:

"Red Sex-Links are the result of various crosses. White Rocks with the silver factor (the dominant white gene would produce all white offspring) are crossed with a New Hampshire male to produce the Golden Comet. Silver Laced Wyandotte crossed with New Hampshire gives the Cinnamon Queen."

(there is more on the site about the crossbreeds, here's the link

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Sex-links/BRKSexLink.html

If I understand this right . . . the "silver" or "silver laced" gene on these two crosses, would BLOCK the black-colored areas of the feather - the black would still genetically sort of "be there" but would be masked by the white color instead???

So that black tail tip and wing tips, would be white, and then the mottling would be laid on top of that?

And then the overall effect would be a red chicken with white mottling, but it would show more white than a black/white/red chicken, because the black tail/wing areas would be masked by the white gene?

And that is why you suggest using red sex linked hens with "more red the better" because the white would actually be hidden black? So more red means more contrast against the mottling?

Did I get that right at all?? LOL!

And if I did, "get it" - is there a particular cross of autosexing red that would work better than the others?

Thanks!

 

[ChrystalGail]

Sommer, be careful with your terminology... Auto Sexing and Sex Links are different. One (Auto Sexing) you can breed down generations and the offspring are still auto sexing at hatch. The other (Sex Links) are only sex linked on the first cross. You cannot cross the offspring of sex links together and get sex linked chicks. Anybody, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the way it works.

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:


Okay, here's a quote I read from Feathersite about it:

"Red Sex-Links are the result of various crosses. White Rocks with the silver factor (the dominant white gene would produce all white offspring) are crossed with a New Hampshire male to produce the Golden Comet. Silver Laced Wyandotte crossed with New Hampshire gives the Cinnamon Queen."

(there is more on the site about the crossbreeds, here's the link

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Sex-links/BRKSexLink.html

If I understand this right . . . the "silver" or "silver laced" gene on these two crosses, would BLOCK the black-colored areas of the feather - the black would still genetically sort of "be there" but would be masked by the white color instead???

So that black tail tip and wing tips, would be white, and then the mottling would be laid on top of that?

And then the overall effect would be a red chicken with white mottling, but it would show more white than a black/white/red chicken, because the black tail/wing areas would be masked by the white gene?

And that is why you suggest using red sex linked hens with "more red the better" because the white would actually be hidden black? So more red means more contrast against the mottling?

Did I get that right at all?? LOL!

And if I did, "get it" - is there a particular cross of autosexing red that would work better than the others?

Thanks!

1. There is a difference in autosexing breeds and sex- linked birds. Chrystal is correct in what she posted. You want sex linked birds.

2, In order to get the correct kind of sex linked bird, you may have to email or phone a hatchery to find out what they use to make their sex linked birds.

Rhode island red male X rhode island white would work well. Most hatcheries have produced their own birds they cross to produce red sex links and they will work fine. You do not want to use birds that have a female parent that is silver laced or silver pencilled. The female parent should carry dominant white (be a white bird) and the male should be a black tailed red (production red, new hamp or rhode island).

3. You do not want to use a silver bird or a silver laced bird in your breeding regimen. The silver gene and silver lacing will remove the red from your birds. This will produce a bird that is completely different than the birds you want to produce.

4. You do not want to use a buff bird to get rid of the black. - the color buff ( as in buff orpington) is caused by a number of different genes. You must have the correct combination of genes to remove the black from the bird. Getting the correct combination may take years of breeding. Many buff breeders use the dominant white gene to get rid of the black in buff birds. You want to keep this as simple as possible.

Use a new hampshire to lighten the red in your birds to get a buff color. New hampshire carry a gene or genes that lighten their color.

5. The dominant white gene is the gene that will change the black to a white color in the offspring. This is where the sex linked bird comes into play. You want a sex linked bird that carries dominant white to pass on the dominant white gene to the offspring. The sex linked bird also carries many of the genes found in your bird. They are very close in genotype (genes they have).

If you look at the picture of the male, you will see black in his breast feathers. If he was carrying dominant white his breast would be red with the mottling and without the black. Some of the feathers in his tail that are black would be white. Dominant white is only dominant over black pigment and not red pigment.

Your statement about dominant white masking the black is correct.

You understand why I said more red the better. You want to use a bird that has a red body with some white in the wings and tail.


Tim

 

[alohachickens]

Quote:
OK, thanks! I totally get that part, in horses for example, there are lots of genes that only effect black or only effect red, and a couple that effect both. Knowing which genes effect what base color tells you what you can get.

In horses and dogs, red is recessive to black, so the fact that my Exchequer crosses were all coming out black and white (no matter what the other parent's color was) was telling me that rule was probably the same in birds.

In horses, there are only two base colors - red or black, and the other colors all come from "modifier" genes. But trying to figure out what the modifiers are in chickens is new to me!

So, "Dominant White" blocks black pigment, but does not affect red. Does that mean a "Dominant White" gene chicken, crossed to an all-black ckicken, would make a white chicken?? Just curious!!

If that is the case, then does it mean a Dominant White chicken crossed to the black and white mottled chicken, would produce a chicken that looks all white? So that I know not to cross the two strains, if that's the case, LOL!!

What do the other "silver" genes mentioned on Feathersite do? Do they modify the feather pattern?

Sorry so many questions, but you seem to know a lot about the color genes.

Thanks!

 

[Krys109uk]

It might be interesting to note that dominant white (I) will, inhibit red/gold colour (pheomelanin) when homozygous. It is said to make a white bird with some red leakage.

While heterozygous dominant white inhibits black pigment (eumelanin) leaving leakage. I think homozygous dominant white is going to inhibit pheomelanin at least to some extent. This could cause problems if the birds are to be bred together without having non dominant white birds.

Tim, you've probably done more with dominant white than me. What do you think?

 

[alohachickens]

Quote:
Yes, Tim (and any others?) do let me know if that would mean I'd need to avoid the red/white tail birds from crossing - by using black-tailed NHR crosses, that show the black in there as well? (Mind you, I like the tri-colored ones a lot too!)

Oh - and I've had a few queries about why I was starting with the Exchequers to begin with, and not the Javas.

This is really odd - I noticed the pattern on the Exchequers is really bright and bold. Check out the Mottled Java Roo pix on Feathersite:

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGD/Java/BRKJava.html

And here's the 3/4 Exchequer, 1/4 Speckled Sussex roo of mine that I held back:

Hmm, maybe crossing him with some Mottled Java stock hens would be a quickie way to bump up the size on the black and whites, though? And then bring in Blue color to get bigger blue and white down the road?

I thought the differences in color pattern between the two breeds were pretty striking - and I'm hoping for "obnoxiously bright" birds even if the white areas get kind of patchy. Really, really crazy effect . . . . big and bold.

I thought it would be easy to replace the black on the Exchequers with red, but of course that has not proven to be the case, lol.

And if anyone on here is getting Speckled Sussex birds with "too much white" those might be more helpful to me for crosses than proper Speckled Sussex birds. I know there can be a bit of variation on the amount of white? If someone has mismarked Sussex with excessive white, send me some eggs! LOL!!

Basically, the general idea is along the lines of the "Swedish Flower Hens" which tend to show a lot of white, but in even more colors.

 

[tadkerson]

Aloha Chicken,

I am having a difficult time trying to understand what you want. Are you wanting a millie fluer like pattern or the exchequer pattern. I am also having a hard time understanding what you mean by obnoxiously bright. I only know what colors the chicken can be not what colors you want them to be.

You seem to be jumping all over the place on what you want in the chicken. You can only get certain colors and color patterns in a chicken.

Before I can help you- I have to understand what you want. I am not trying to be a jerk-I am having a hard time understanding your vision.

Krys,

From what I have seen, it makes no difference if a bird has two dominant white or one dominant white gene in determining the level of red in a bird.

What actually determines how much red shows is (and you already know this )the S locus, the E locus gene, if the bird is columbian restricted, if the bird has autosomal red, if the bird carries mahogany etc. There are many variables that determine the level of red in a bird, so as usual it is not a simple one verses two alleles thing. The research does not do a good job in explaining all the variables. When I assess a dominant white bird I view the white areas as black, the red areas as red then go from there and try to determine what genes are effecting the primary color pattern.

I am going to post what I have carried out on the post about sex linked barring.

Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

From what I have seen, it makes no difference if a bird has two dominant white or one dominant white gene in determining the level of red in a bird.

Interesting you say that. The books (poultry breeding & genetics, Creative Poultry Breeding, etc.) say (I/I) gives white birds with red leakage. I haven't done very much with dominant white, but several years ago, in UK, I made some buff laced wyandottes & pyle varieties of a few breeds & wondered at the time why I didn't get any white birds with red leakage.
I had to stop my projects when I moved over here so wasn't able to investigate.​

 

[ChrystalGail]

Tim, go easy on her. We are what I like to call "Sparkle Brained." We have a million sparkles of thought going on in our head at once and we just kinda throw it all out there! LOL... I do it all the time. My husband is a very patient person!

We just need to be calmed down and focused on the things that need to be focused on. She wants to do a couple different versions of this bird. One being the orange/red and the other a blue. That's right isn't it, Sommer?

 

[becky3086]

I believe the idea was to have a flock of mixed colored mottled birds. I myself have been glued to this thread as I have a similiar project in mind that has to do with mottling.