Outcome at Last Night's Public Forum in Winder, GA

[Woodcutterron]

Quote:
I suspect they might have taken advantage you relying on an understandable lack of procedural knowledge? I don't know the rules ya'll up there work under, but generally anyone can request to be heard formally.

Now as for the folks trying to lay low quietly, so they don't "get caught" ehh. I find that a little cowardly, to be honest. Our country was founded by men who risked a LOT more than losing their chickens by speaking out. They risked their necks, literally. Folks who won't fight because of petty fears kinda dishonor our feisty and brave forefathers. If this opinion upsets some folks, I can't help that. I'd feel uncomfortable with letting others risk their necks while I hid out too . . . . . . that's why I don't hide. that being said:

We don't necessarily have to take much of a risk. If someone else speaks out, the least we can do is show up to sit in the gallery in support of them. We don't have to give our names to show up at a council or commission meeting wearing a "Leave our Chickens alone!" tee shirt.

I wouldn't wait to go back before them. Find out the formal procedure to get some floor time if you don't already know. Talk about how silly some of the reasons it was denied before were. Don't be afraid to use the words silly. Now not everyone is cut out for this but me, if they tried rebutting and saying something like "well we don't feel they were silly" I'd matter of factly reply, "Well they were" and go about making your case that demonstrates it. One advantage you now have is you kinda know their entire position, so you can target your argument to chop it up and spit it out, heheh.

Point out that you are in the process of getting a hard petition (not one of the largely worthless, at least for local issues, "online Petitions) going, and I would highlight the fact that it will include contact information . . . that you will use come next election to let every person who signs it know just who ignored their wishes. And tell them that too. Politics is hardball, so pitch hard and fast, heheh.

Don't be surprised if/when they try to stonewall you, tell you they've already addressed it and want to move on. "Ya didn't address it adequately, that's why I'm here now . . .and I'll be here next month . . .with even more people." One thing is keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to dig up each and every supporter. Try to get feed stores to marshall some forces for you. Remind "underground" chicken keepers that they don't have to give their name to stand there watching. make them feel a little guilty about not helping you, when you're doing this for them. They should feel a little guilty aboutit. Folks you get to come, have them bring three people with them. Drag the kids along too. The grandparents. Even friends who couldn't care less about chickens. Get 40-50 folks in there wearing yellow shirts or whatever in unity . . .well . . . hard to pass the buck and blow off that many potential voters, heheh.

When is the next council meeting? Call and request you be placed on the agenda. Write letters to the editor. Does your local Newspaper have a Blog area? Use it. Was Councilman Smith rude? Say so in the letter. Did councilman Jones say something downright dumb? Say so in the letter. Be a squeaky wheel until they give ya that chicken grease!

One more thing: you may have already posted this, but I have a heck of a time finding stuff in this busy forum, heheh. What is the language of the actual Ordinance?

 

[Woodcutterron]

One more thing: Try to speak after "their people" do. Request it. If they don't want to do that, ask them "why not?" If they have a weak reason, a reply like "Sounds like you can let me, you just don't want to let me . . . I want to". It annoys them, but hey, they might comply, if for no other reason than to "move it along".

 

[onecent]

Quote:
I suspect they might have taken advantage you relying on an understandable lack of procedural knowledge? I don't know the rules ya'll up there work under, but generally anyone can request to be heard formally.

Now as for the folks trying to lay low quietly, so they don't "get caught" ehh. I find that a little cowardly, to be honest. Our country was founded by men who risked a LOT more than losing their chickens by speaking out. They risked their necks, literally. Folks who won't fight because of petty fears kinda dishonor our feisty and brave forefathers. If this opinion upsets some folks, I can't help that. I'd feel uncomfortable with letting others risk their necks while I hid out too . . . . . . that's why I don't hide. that being said:

We don't necessarily have to take much of a risk. If someone else speaks out, the least we can do is show up to sit in the gallery in support of them. We don't have to give our names to show up at a council or commission meeting wearing a "Leave our Chickens alone!" tee shirt.

I wouldn't wait to go back before them. Find out the formal procedure to get some floor time if you don't already know. Talk about how silly some of the reasons it was denied before were. Don't be afraid to use the words silly. Now not everyone is cut out for this but me, if they tried rebutting and saying something like "well we don't feel they were silly" I'd matter of factly reply, "Well they were" and go about making your case that demonstrates it. One advantage you now have is you kinda know their entire position, so you can target your argument to chop it up and spit it out, heheh.

Point out that you are in the process of getting a hard petition (not one of the largely worthless, at least for local issues, "online Petitions) going, and I would highlight the fact that it will include contact information . . . that you will use come next election to let every person who signs it know just who ignored their wishes. And tell them that too. Politics is hardball, so pitch hard and fast, heheh.

Don't be surprised if/when they try to stonewall you, tell you they've already addressed it and want to move on. "Ya didn't address it adequately, that's why I'm here now . . .and I'll be here next month . . .with even more people." One thing is keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to dig up each and every supporter. Try to get feed stores to marshall some forces for you. Remind "underground" chicken keepers that they don't have to give their name to stand there watching. make them feel a little guilty about not helping you, when you're doing this for them. They should feel a little guilty aboutit. Folks you get to come, have them bring three people with them. Drag the kids along too. The grandparents. Even friends who couldn't care less about chickens. Get 40-50 folks in there wearing yellow shirts or whatever in unity . . .well . . . hard to pass the buck and blow off that many potential voters, heheh.

When is the next council meeting? Call and request you be placed on the agenda. Write letters to the editor. Does your local Newspaper have a Blog area? Use it. Was Councilman Smith rude? Say so in the letter. Did councilman Jones say something downright dumb? Say so in the letter. Be a squeaky wheel until they give ya that chicken grease!

One more thing: you may have already posted this, but I have a heck of a time finding stuff in this busy forum, heheh. What is the language of the actual Ordinance?

Thank you!...ummmm, dont you want to come to Roanoke Rapids,NC & help me........

ok, just a thought

here is the ordinance

§ 91.11 KEEPING OF CERTAIN ANIMALS REGULATED.

It shall be unlawful for any person to keep, maintain, house or allow upon his premises, whether such premises be owned outright by such person or leased from another, within the corporate limits, cows, horses, mules, chickens, bees or other non-domesticated animals, unless activity was in operation or existing prior to 1975.

 

[Woodcutterron]

Well . . . if it were me, I would just get some chickens and keep them, since doing so is apparently allowed by the code.

After all . . . . the keeping of chickens did in fact exist prior to 1975. Bear with me for a second. In law, one word, or even a comma, can change everything. Back in the mid 80's, I got a ridiculous . . . but admittedly valid, drug charge (caught with one "roach") dismissed by filing a Motion to suppress (evidence), which was granted, and without that "roach" the case was dead and charges were dropped. It hinged on one word, the word "Game".

This is the case here too. The word "or"

§ 91.11 KEEPING OF CERTAIN ANIMALS REGULATED.

It shall be unlawful for any person to keep, maintain, house or allow upon his premises, whether such premises be owned outright by such person or leased from another, within the corporate limits, cows, horses, mules, chickens, bees or other non-domesticated animals, unless activity was in operation or existing prior to 1975.

The moron who drafted that ordinance screwed up. He (she?) should have either used the word "and" or really should not have put the two words "or existing" in there at all.

In essence, the statute should have read:

§ 91.11 KEEPING OF CERTAIN ANIMALS REGULATED.

It shall be unlawful for any person to keep, maintain, house or allow upon his premises, whether such premises be owned outright by such person or leased from another, within the corporate limits, cows, horses, mules, chickens, bees or other non-domesticated animals, unless activity was in operation prior to 1975.

It doesn't matter that the writer of that ordinance may . . . or may not have . . intended. The statute clearly allows either any activity that was in operation prior to 1975 is allowable, and it also clearly states that any activity that existed prior to 1975 is also allowed. Keeping chickens, is an activity. This is not a "technicality." It simply IS, absolutely and unarguably, an activity.

If the writer had intended the activity to be an ongoing activity, he should have said so. If he had meant it to mean an activity that both existed and operated he should have said so. He didn't. He used the word "or. " In doing so, they split existence and operation into two distinctly separate allowance clauses . . . all with one little two letter word. Go figure, eh?

Sounds good, right? Well it is, actually. But . . . (I hate that word) I wouldn't march triumphantly into City hall, and expect them to immediately capitulate. They won't like that. And the City Attorney will cry foul and say that isn't what the law means. He's full of crap, and will likely know it, but he'll say it anyway. You likely will have to at least file this as an affirmative defense. I would aslo state other affirmative defenses, as in the ordinance is invalid period, in that it without reasonable justification restricts your right to be at liberty to enjoy your property in a reasonable and quiet manner. In essence, that defense makes it a Constitutional issue.

Now I'm a trained paralegal, and I would still want an attorney to handle this stuff for me. Further, you might have to appeal it, particularly if you try to prosecute your case yourself. In many lower local courts, the Judges play golf and have dinner parties with the very same people who don't want you to have chickens. That depends on the actual integrity of the local judge. But be ready to lose that first round if ya go it alone.

So what would I do in your situation? I would just keep my mouth shut and get me a few birds, heheh. If and when you get cited, I would send them a letter stating, and stating it quite defiantly, that you WILL challenge their Ordinance, it is inapplicable to you for the reasons above, you will seek an injunction to halt further punitive activity until such time as the case is fully adjudicated, and you will do your best to make sure everyone in town knows how much of the cities money the City leaders will be spending on the litigation to keep you from . . . having a few chickens.

Better yet, if you can get an attorney to say that stuff on his or her letterhead. Of course do all this stuff on the very last day you can. If they give you thirty days to reply, don't reply for 29 days.

During that time, you can also go to council meetings and push them to change it before the whole issue blows up and becomes quite embarrassing for them. They may "call your bluff" a few times, but hey, if you aren't bluffing, generally, they'll eventually figure it out and likely get a little scared and uncomfortable.

Even if you are bluffing . . .keep bluffing anyway, as long as you can.

 

[onecent]

OMG!! woodcutterron, do you know how i have sat and stared at that ordinance and knew something just wasn't right, but couldn't put my finger on it!!! and now i see it.... that little word OR...totally changes everything! I feel dumb as a bag of rocks!..lol, now i have run into another problem, ..DH....i showed him all of this, but hes afraid if i get the chickens, it will end up costing us if the city "gets mad" & fines me if i get caught, and then i told him i could get a lawyer, that went over like a lead balloon too, cause that's more $$,.. but now, I'm on a mission.....

 

[Woodcutterron]

Well, one thing you could do is have a backup plan, which of course is easier said than done. In other words somewhere to take yout chickens. Check your ordinances there might be a standard amount of time they give you correct the situation, and the fine might only apply if you don't correct the situation within that timeframe. That might make him feel better. Frankly, the very idea that the city might get mad at ya'll should make ya'll . . well . . . mad. Look at what Edmund Burke said about apathy:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Make no mistake, when our Government moves to mandate even minor issues like the keeping of chickens on our own property, that is evil, and I am not exaggerating. There is ALWAYS a certain amount of risk when standing against an unfair exercise of authority. People not willing to assume some of that risk are the very reason it is a risk in the first place. Gotta take a chance sometimes!

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Quote:

 

[Woodcutterron]

Anything new up Winder Way?

 

[onecent]

Oh my gosh!! I just realized I totally stole this thread! I'm very sorry!... but i am working on getting my birds back!

Now back to Winder,Ga. I really want things to work out for you! Ill be praying for you!!

 

[Woodcutterron]

I wouldn't sweat it, I learned a long time ago that threads tend to take on a life of their own, and sometimes go off on tangents. It's just the way human conversation works, be it face to face or in this format. Boards that artificially try to maintain rigid topicality tend to be . . .well . . .boring. We can always get back on the topic of Winder just by talking about Winder. You could start a new thread about your town and situation . . .though we might end up discussing Winder in it, heheh.