Overwhelmed With Feed Thoughts, Please Help!

[ChickyCh00k]

This is the individual I listen to for all feed-related recommendations. If Stormcrow gives you different advice than me, follow it.

I'm hoping I didn't say anything too erroneous, lol...

 

[ChickenChick46]

This is the individual I listen to for all feed-related recommendations. If Stormcrow gives you different advice than me, follow it.

I'm hoping I didn't say anything too erroneous, lol...

I'll be on the lookout for their recommendations! Thank you!

 

[Laurasb65]

I've been using Kalmbach. It always smells like Italian seasoning.. I get from Family Farm and Home or chewy. I use get what the Farm elevator made and it was great, but they ended up closing due to a lot of farms by use selling off.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Welcome down the rabbit hole with me and a few others. You'd be surprised what Pandemic era shortages forced us to learn. We'll unpack your question in more digestible bits.

"Starter" vs "All Flock". These are MARKETING terms. The words don't matter. The guaranteed nutritional label does.**

Here's the label for Kalmbach's "18% Starter Crumble"


And here is their "20% 'All Flock' Flockmaker Crumble":


Both of these are fine feeds, used with success by lots of people around the nation. Both meet or exceed (generally exceed) the Nutritional recommendations for adult layers in every respect except Calcium (which chickens are very good at self-regulating intake for, which is why so many of us provide free choice oyster shell or similar dedicated calcium source). These feeds also meet or exceed the recommendations for hatchlings and adolescent layers. Your key concerns here are at least 0.3% Methionine (I look for 0.4% minimum) which affects connective tissue, digestion, and general health (because a chicken's gut is their primary immune system, and its largely connective tissue). Methionine is also key for protein synthesis - think of it as a train engine. Doesn't matter how many cars (other Amino Acids) are sitting in the station - if there is no engine, there is no train (Complex protein). Just a bunch of useless cars.

Lysine is key to muscle development, particularly breast muscle - so if you are raising meaties or "dual purpose birds" you benefit from more Lys (assuming there's enough Met to make effective use of it). 0.7% is wheat you are looking for as minimum for an adult layer. Younger birds need more. Meaties need much more.

Calcium and Phosphorous are used in a ratio of about 2:1 for almost every metabolic process EXCEPT egg shell production. Maintenance needs are about 1.% Calcium, 0.45% Phosphorous in most readings. Extra Phosphorous, to a point, helps buffer Calcium toxicity, but more importantly, Chickens essentially can't use phytate Phosphorous (plant-based P sources), unlike us human-types. They lack the enzymes. So if your birds free range/.access grazing trays, etc, the extra non-phytate P in both these feeds is of benefit, without being so high as to negatively impact bone development or the Ca/P ion channel (nervous system communications). Again, these are both good numbers - much better than most feeds.

Sodium is where it needs to be. Disclosed vitamin content is fine - I'm not going to make any claims about vitamins being "superfoods", its simply too complicated to reduce to a single input. I AM, however, going to talk about Niacin for a moment. Niacin isn't required to be disclosed on a feed bag, and you will see its not even present on the label for their Chick Starter. Nor will you find it on most feed labels from other Mfgs. 45mg/kg is the common recommend for adult pekin ducks (I've seen a little higher, a little lower - call it "somewhere near"). Pekins typically need more niacin than other duck breeds. Hatchling and adolescent pekins need more. The FlockMaker offers 45mg/lb. 2.2 lb per kg, meaning there is roughly 100mg/kg Niacin in the feed - more than enough for any duck, not enough to cause concern for your chickens. Its the Niacin content that makes it an "All Flock" - the Chick Starter doesn't guarantee is has the needed Niacin.

(**I'll come back to this)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Those are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from those? What recommendations can we make?

1) Both of these are fine feeds. If only one is available to you, it will meet your chicken's nutritional needs regardless of age or gender, apart from Calcium - which is why you offer free choice calcium. Neither are specifically formulated for CornishX, the "Frankenchicken", whose needs are much higher - but the FlockMaker can be used in a Cx's last weeks before freezer camp w/ satisfactory results.

2) The FlockMaker is a nutritionally superior feed, across the board. If both are available to you, of roughly equal freshness, at the same price point, buy the Flockmaker. If the Flockmaker is significantly more expensive, the differences between the feeds for most birds, of most uses, at most ages, are so tiny you would never notice them unless you keep very good records and have a very large flock. In which case, using the ChickStarter makes good financial sense. (There are some feed management styles where, in spite of the higher price, Flockmaker still makes sense financially for hatchlings and adolescents, but I'm trying to keep this brief)

3) If you have ducks, particularly Pekins, you should always choose the FlockMaker, right? At similar price point and freshnness, Yes. But a lack of certainty about Niacin content is EASILY fixed with a little nutritional yeast - which will also increase certain vitamins, total crude protein, and all amino acids, including the critical Met and Lys. Depending on how much feed you need, and the cost of nutritional yeast at your local grocer, Chick Starter might still make good financial sense. If FlockMaker isn't available and you have ducks, ChickStarter + Nutritional Yeast is your go to.

So, why use Chick Starter at all??? see NEXT POST.

 

[Mother of Chaos]

… a little nutritional yeast - which will also increase certain vitamins, total crude protein, and all amino acids, including the critical Met and Lys. Depending on how much feed you need, and the cost of nutritional yeast at your local grocer, Chick Starter might still make good financial sense. If FlockMaker isn't available and you have ducks, ChickStarter + Nutritional Yeast is your go to.

I don’t want to interrupt your roll, but how much nutritional yeast is reasonable per pound or per kilo of feed?

I bought a packet to make a vegan recipe for a friend, hated the recipe, and now I have nutritional yeast to use up.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Remember when I said, "Starter" vs "All Flock". These are MARKETING terms. The words don't matter. The guaranteed nutritional label does."**???

I'm coming back to those now.

Kalmbach's All Natural "All Flock" is nutritionally superior to their "Chick Starter" essentially across the board. That's not true of every manufacturer or product line. It may not hold true for their Organics, their "Henhouse Reserve" line, etc. For some Mfgs, their All Flock and Starter are nutritionally near identical, and thus interchangeable.

Because these words are used to denote market segmentations, not necessarily nutritional numbers we are going to step away from the hard numbers and talk generalities.

1) When you step into a store, you are FAR more likely to find a small bag of "Starter" than a small bag of "All Flock" - because people raising 3 or 4 chicks at home don't need a 50# bag. If the feed will go stale/rancid before your birds eat it, the fact that it started from a place of nutritional superiority doesn't matter. Numerous vitamins degrade in the presence of oxygen, sunlight, and/or moisture - while the chances of insect infestation, oils going rancid (oxygen again), and mildew/undesired yeasts or other bacterial colonization increase. Only buy quantities you are likely to use in the short term (how short depends on storage and environment - my outside shed in mid 90s daily heat and near constant 80-%+ humidity is far different than the closet of a climate controlled home, the Arizona desert, or on a concrete in a Miami carport (don't do this!).

2) "Starter" is FAR more likely to contain a coccidiostat (what is commonly labeled as "Medicated". Not that you can't buy an AllFlock-type with a coccidiostat, Purina makes some as example in their most popular product line - but chances are high the local farm store doesn't stock it. DO you NEED medicated feed??? That's a highly fact specific and personal choice. I'll offer some guidance you should feel free to ignore. Coccidia are EVERYWHERE humans have ever been. You can't escape their presence. But that doesn't mean you need a coccidiostat.
A) If you have ever had a major coccidia problem on your grounds, you should STRONGLY consider using a coccidiostat when raising chicks as a buffer to allow their immune systems to develop before coccidia overwhelm them. Its great to raise birds without, but I'd argue that is more than offset by how terrible it is to loose a batch to bloody intestines when their systems are overwhelmed.
B) If you've never had a coccidia problem, you have good space from your neighbors, good biosecurity, you have little need for a coccidiostat. Careful, limited exposure to your grounds as your birds grow should allow them to develop sufficient immune system to keep coccidia under control. While routine use of a coccidiostat (like routine use of antibiotics) tends to select for coccidia who can tolerate such things. I would recommend against routine use in that situation.
C) If your chickens are challenged by other disease sources, and are weak/vulnerable - you might temporarily consider a coccidiostat. Coccidia are opportunistic and always present. Weak, injured, ill birds are most susceptible. Temporary use of a medicated feed may be part of reasonable supportive care.
D) The most common coccidiostat used here in the US for feeds for backyard use is Amprolium. Amprolium is a Thiamine antagonist. There is not enough Amprolium in a bag of chicken feed to significantly impact a chicken's nutritional intake, but because coccidia are so much more simple life, they are far more vulnerable to thiamine deficiency. It won't kill all of them. But it will greatly assist your birds in controlling the coccidia already in them. If you have no choice but to buy medicated? Its fine. Won't hurt your birds any. But if you are still concerned, offer a thiamine source (commonly found in various "Boosters"). Thiamine a B1. Its water soluable. You can add it to their water if you are that concerned (separate water - your birds should ALWAYS have fresh, clean, unadulterated water available) - the excess of B1 in their food and drink will overwhelm the Amprolium's ability to interfere with uptake.
E) The EU doesn't much use Amprolium, they tend to use Ionophores like Monensin Narasin, others. I can't explain how they work, but they are proven safe. If that's your "medicated" feed, don't sweat it.

3) If you are seeking to avoid use of medicated feeds, for whatever reason, the "All Flock" on the shelf almost certainly doesn't contain any.

4) In all cases, READ THE LABEL and the MILL DATE.

and I think that covers the basics. I've got to get back to coffee and today's "to do" list. Hope that helps a little.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I don’t want to interrupt your roll, but how much nutritional yeast is reasonable per pound or per kilo of feed?

I bought a packet to make a vegan recipe for a friend, hated the recipe, and now I have nutritional yeast to use up.

Pick up your nutritional yeast bottle. Turn it around. Look on the back. Now MATH.

(Sorry - it varies by MFG as to how much is in their yeast. and some will print in mg/kg. Others mg/lb. Still others will offer as % of RDA - and they get to choose which RDA they are going to use. There is no 1 right answer. I had to carry a calculator into Wallyworld last time, while looking up RDA conversions on my cell phone...)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Pick up your nutritional yeast bottle. Turn it around. Look on the back. Now MATH.

(Sorry - it varies by MFG as to how much is in their yeast. and some will print in mg/kg. Others mg/lb. Still others will offer as % of RDA - and they get to choose which RDA they are going to use. There is no 1 right answer. I had to carry a calculator into Wallyworld last time, while looking up RDA conversions on my cell phone...)

Example:

Here is the back of "Bragg's Nutritional Yeast". Its a commonly available national brand.


First thing you see is that its about 50% protein. YUP. 50%.

They contain 35 mg Niacin per 10g of yeast. The container has about 12.7 servings (4.5oz ~ 127g), or about 440mg/bottle.

Chickens need 30-40 mg Niacin per kg of feed, any corn-soy based chicken feed you buy is already going to have added niacin to reach those levels. If you want to bring the niacin content up to around 50mg/kg, one of those bottles is good for about 22kg of regular chicken feed. 22kg is ~ 48.5#. One 4.5 oz of Braggs per 50# feed bag.

Mixing consistently is of course the primary issue. If you are feeding 1# of feed a day, your dosage is half a level tbsp, sprinkled on top - you've added roughly 0.5% average crude protein to your mix (also likely added $6-8 to the cost of a 50# bag of feed).

 

[ChickenChick46]

Remember when I said, "Starter" vs "All Flock". These are MARKETING terms. The words don't matter. The guaranteed nutritional label does."**???

I'm coming back to those now.

Kalmbach's All Natural "All Flock" is nutritionally superior to their "Chick Starter" essentially across the board. That's not true of every manufacturer or product line. It may not hold true for their Organics, their "Henhouse Reserve" line, etc. For some Mfgs, their All Flock and Starter are nutritionally near identical, and thus interchangeable.

Because these words are used to denote market segmentations, not necessarily nutritional numbers we are going to step away from the hard numbers and talk generalities.

1) When you step into a store, you are FAR more likely to find a small bag of "Starter" than a small bag of "All Flock" - because people raising 3 or 4 chicks at home don't need a 50# bag. If the feed will go stale/rancid before your birds eat it, the fact that it started from a place of nutritional superiority doesn't matter. Numerous vitamins degrade in the presence of oxygen, sunlight, and/or moisture - while the chances of insect infestation, oils going rancid (oxygen again), and mildew/undesired yeasts or other bacterial colonization increase. Only buy quantities you are likely to use in the short term (how short depends on storage and environment - my outside shed in mid 90s daily heat and near constant 80-%+ humidity is far different than the closet of a climate controlled home, the Arizona desert, or on a concrete in a Miami carport (don't do this!).

2) "Starter" is FAR more likely to contain a coccidiostat (what is commonly labeled as "Medicated". Not that you can't buy an AllFlock-type with a coccidiostat, Purina makes some as example in their most popular product line - but chances are high the local farm store doesn't stock it. DO you NEED medicated feed??? That's a highly fact specific and personal choice. I'll offer some guidance you should feel free to ignore. Coccidia are EVERYWHERE humans have ever been. You can't escape their presence. But that doesn't mean you need a coccidiostat.
A) If you have ever had a major coccidia problem on your grounds, you should STRONGLY consider using a coccidiostat when raising chicks as a buffer to allow their immune systems to develop before coccidia overwhelm them. Its great to raise birds without, but I'd argue that is more than offset by how terrible it is to loose a batch to bloody intestines when their systems are overwhelmed.
B) If you've never had a coccidia problem, you have good space from your neighbors, good biosecurity, you have little need for a coccidiostat. Careful, limited exposure to your grounds as your birds grow should allow them to develop sufficient immune system to keep coccidia under control. While routine use of a coccidiostat (like routine use of antibiotics) tends to select for coccidia who can tolerate such things. I would recommend against routine use in that situation.
C) If your chickens are challenged by other disease sources, and are weak/vulnerable - you might temporarily consider a coccidiostat. Coccidia are opportunistic and always present. Weak, injured, ill birds are most susceptible. Temporary use of a medicated feed may be part of reasonable supportive care.
D) The most common coccidiostat used here in the US for feeds for backyard use is Amprolium. Amprolium is a Thiamine antagonist. There is not enough Amprolium in a bag of chicken feed to significantly impact a chicken's nutritional intake, but because coccidia are so much more simple life, they are far more vulnerable to thiamine deficiency. It won't kill all of them. But it will greatly assist your birds in controlling the coccidia already in them. If you have no choice but to buy medicated? Its fine. Won't hurt your birds any. But if you are still concerned, offer a thiamine source (commonly found in various "Boosters"). Thiamine a B1. Its water soluable. You can add it to their water if you are that concerned (separate water - your birds should ALWAYS have fresh, clean, unadulterated water available) - the excess of B1 in their food and drink will overwhelm the Amprolium's ability to interfere with uptake.
E) The EU doesn't much use Amprolium, they tend to use Ionophores like Monensin Narasin, others. I can't explain how they work, but they are proven safe. If that's your "medicated" feed, don't sweat it.

3) If you are seeking to avoid use of medicated feeds, for whatever reason, the "All Flock" on the shelf almost certainly doesn't contain any.

4) In all cases, READ THE LABEL and the MILL DATE.

and I think that covers the basics. I've got to get back to coffee and today's "to do" list. Hope that helps a little.

Amazing! I can't thank you enough for all of this! I feel like I should pay you for your time!