- Thread starter
- #11
Thank you everyone for your time and replies. I will keep this posted.
Thanks again. Take care! and care of the chickens!
Thanks again. Take care! and care of the chickens!
Pale Comb PICTURE INCLUDED
- Thread starter chickbuddy
- Start date
- Jan 11, 2007
- 4,870
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Quote:
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #13
Thanks dlhunicorn! I will try the treats and watermelon today. What should I feed them if I can't give grains?
Last edited:
If you mixed yogurt in her layer feed it would boost protein, and add fluids.
- Jan 11, 2007
- 4,870
- 73
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wel have read says to not feed grains ((crumbles/) age appropriate...
Quote:
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Thank you for asking - here's my reasoning:
Honestly - because it's what I've done and I've seen them drink both. I started doing so after I had read a good poultry source that advised it. It makes sense to me. If the birds were drinking a lot of plain water, they wouldn't need electrolytes necessarily to treat for dehydration necessarily. But my recommendation in THIS case was because this bird wasn't a sure case of dehydration. This bird is a "maybe the heat is bothering her" case.
In sure cases of dehydration or at least highly suspected ones, I advise to give the solution in the sole source of water. Sometimes in suspected cases (but not a sure thing) I advise that it's given in a lighter strength than the packaging (as it's not a medicine and a little is better than none). **If you're not using it to treat them for something specific**, but rather as sort of an insurance policy, it's not important to have the exact dosage of a vitamin/mineral/electrolyte solution in the water if and only if you give less rather than more. (More is never recommended unless advised by a vet).
It's balanced to itself. Giving 1/4th the recommended amount to a bird will not harm the bird if they didn't definitely need it as a treatment in the first place.
If the bird is getting its full ration of vitamins and minerals in the food, and you just want to "make sure" then they don't absolutely have to have the exact dosage - but definitely not MORE than the dosage. I, too, and concerned that the birds will refuse to drink the electrolyte solution because of the taste and at least then they have plain water to drink instead of no-water.
In cases of stress, illness, such as when my geese were attacked for example - I advise the electrolyte/vitamin solution - particularly if the birds aren't eating much and aren't drinking.
The other reason I do it is that I've read too many cases of the birds knocking over their sole source of water in the heat. If heat is a big enough issue to consider electrolytes, it would be nice for them to have a back up waterer.
You can feed grains in the summer, but I usually recommend whole oats rather than corn as it's not as high a 'heat' food. The higher energy and fat grains are best used in the winter as a "heat" food. But whole oats can be very useful in a flock even in the summer for conditioning without making them fat, adding fiber if the birds are feather eaters, and giving them something to work for. It's the least hot of the grain options - certainly in my mind a better option than the scratch that so many people feed here. That being said - although I've read plenty of books that advise feeding oats free choice, I still recommend that people give at least 95% of the diet in crumbles/pellets (age-appropriate) and the rest can be more of the same, or treats, grains, etc.
On the heat - I imagine I probably live in one of the hottest areas of the states. Our summer temps are regularly 112 heat index. I wouldn't dare feed corn because it's a hot grain, but I do still offer oats (way under 5% of the diet) for the reasons listed above.
I definitely agree on feeding crumbles/pellets (always age appropriate) as the main part of the diet because the companies have done the work for you balancing the nutrients. And I heartily agree on the watery treats to help hydrate. (Of course remembering that the great majority of their feed should be the complete feed aka pellets crumbles). Just remember you might see the water come through in the droppings, and not to panic.
Incidentally, the amount of yogurt you I use and usually recommend will add only a little fluids as you don't leave it out all day. It does add some though - which is definitely a benefit for cases of actual dehydration. It should be cleaned up in 10 minutes in the heat, and should also not be enough to add considerably fluids because too much yogurt does kind of push their limits for the lactose in my opinion. Different people have different ideas about how much is "too much" but I still like to keep it around 2 tablespoons per bird max in my own flocks.
So there's my reasoning and some other thoughts thrown in. I'm curious if you can point out the harm in my advice, specific harm, as you seem to be implying that my advice was harmful?
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Thank you for asking - here's my reasoning:
Honestly - because it's what I've done and I've seen them drink both. I started doing so after I had read a good poultry source that advised it. It makes sense to me. If the birds were drinking a lot of plain water, they wouldn't need electrolytes necessarily to treat for dehydration necessarily. But my recommendation in THIS case was because this bird wasn't a sure case of dehydration. This bird is a "maybe the heat is bothering her" case.
In sure cases of dehydration or at least highly suspected ones, I advise to give the solution in the sole source of water. Sometimes in suspected cases (but not a sure thing) I advise that it's given in a lighter strength than the packaging (as it's not a medicine and a little is better than none). **If you're not using it to treat them for something specific**, but rather as sort of an insurance policy, it's not important to have the exact dosage of a vitamin/mineral/electrolyte solution in the water if and only if you give less rather than more. (More is never recommended unless advised by a vet).
It's balanced to itself. Giving 1/4th the recommended amount to a bird will not harm the bird if they didn't definitely need it as a treatment in the first place.
If the bird is getting its full ration of vitamins and minerals in the food, and you just want to "make sure" then they don't absolutely have to have the exact dosage - but definitely not MORE than the dosage. I, too, and concerned that the birds will refuse to drink the electrolyte solution because of the taste and at least then they have plain water to drink instead of no-water.
In cases of stress, illness, such as when my geese were attacked for example - I advise the electrolyte/vitamin solution - particularly if the birds aren't eating much and aren't drinking.
The other reason I do it is that I've read too many cases of the birds knocking over their sole source of water in the heat. If heat is a big enough issue to consider electrolytes, it would be nice for them to have a back up waterer.
You can feed grains in the summer, but I usually recommend whole oats rather than corn as it's not as high a 'heat' food. The higher energy and fat grains are best used in the winter as a "heat" food. But whole oats can be very useful in a flock even in the summer for conditioning without making them fat, adding fiber if the birds are feather eaters, and giving them something to work for. It's the least hot of the grain options - certainly in my mind a better option than the scratch that so many people feed here. That being said - although I've read plenty of books that advise feeding oats free choice, I still recommend that people give at least 95% of the diet in crumbles/pellets (age-appropriate) and the rest can be more of the same, or treats, grains, etc.
On the heat - I imagine I probably live in one of the hottest areas of the states. Our summer temps are regularly 112 heat index. I wouldn't dare feed corn because it's a hot grain, but I do still offer oats (way under 5% of the diet) for the reasons listed above.
I definitely agree on feeding crumbles/pellets (always age appropriate) as the main part of the diet because the companies have done the work for you balancing the nutrients. And I heartily agree on the watery treats to help hydrate. (Of course remembering that the great majority of their feed should be the complete feed aka pellets crumbles). Just remember you might see the water come through in the droppings, and not to panic.
Incidentally, the amount of yogurt you I use and usually recommend will add only a little fluids as you don't leave it out all day. It does add some though - which is definitely a benefit for cases of actual dehydration. It should be cleaned up in 10 minutes in the heat, and should also not be enough to add considerably fluids because too much yogurt does kind of push their limits for the lactose in my opinion. Different people have different ideas about how much is "too much" but I still like to keep it around 2 tablespoons per bird max in my own flocks.
So there's my reasoning and some other thoughts thrown in. I'm curious if you can point out the harm in my advice, specific harm, as you seem to be implying that my advice was harmful?
Last edited:
- Jan 11, 2007
- 4,870
- 73
- 251
Quote:
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Thank you for asking - here's my reasoning:
Honestly - because it's what I've done and I've seen them drink both. I started doing so after I had read a good poultry source that advised it. It makes sense to me. If the birds were drinking a lot of plain water, they wouldn't need electrolytes necessarily to treat for dehydration necessarily. But my recommendation in THIS case was because this bird wasn't a sure case of dehydration. This bird is a "maybe the heat is bothering her" case. ...
The advice from all the experts (which I am not > meaning I am not qualified to speak against that which is advised by an expert/veterinary articles) is to give as the SOLE source of water (if in doubt then only give for two or three days or until the bird has recovered and is no longer showing symptoms) > the advice is also for four days (except in cases of heat stress where the bird is panting (which I understood from the OPs post was the case with this bird) > panting will cause acidosis creating an electrolyte imbalance and as long as the bird is panting then electrolytes in the water is indicated is my understanding of the literature written on the matter from veterinary sources (altho in this case of suspected heat stress one can give a lesser dosage >dosage listed on the package is the MAX and should never be exceeded) is my understanding. Please read here to understand "electrolyte imbalance and dehydration basics:
http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=emergencies&action=display&num=1162030046
...articles in the link below alos have some incredibly helpful info on understanding dehydration/electrolyte imbalance specifically related to heat stress:
http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1183206527
... after reading the above it is apparent that rehydration/electrolyte imbalance issues is not as simple as "the bird drinking sufficiently" (altho this is often the underlying issue in matters of illness) ... in some forms of electrolyte imbalance (heat stress or shock or polyuria and in particular: dehyration which has exceeded the boundary to which oral rehydration measures are insufficent to address the matter) , drinking plain water (often to excess) can actually exascerbate the condition (which does occasionally happen > I have seen posts which are blaming this on the administration or incorrect administration (claiming too much or for too long) when I suspect that there was other issues spoken of in these articles which would have been impossible for the layman OR vet to know without some diagnostic testing and which oral measures of admin of electrolytes simply was insufficient to deal with the matter. What it boils down to is that oral rehydration measures with a "standard" electroyte is not always sufficient to address all rehydration/electrolyte imbalance problems.
There are no lactose problems with yogurt... greens however (as most go wild for them and will pig out) can be an issue in hot weather as they can cause polyuria when eaten in excess, exacerbating hydration problems. As the articles advise to take away all food sources during the day (and then they are talking about processed feed grains etc.) then the frozen yogurt treats helps to address the (nutrition) problem arising from this i.e. that this advice is the reason it is also necessary when following it to give a general supplement (birds eating less). Yogurt will provide more nutrition than fruit treats given for hydration measures during the daytime when the feed is not there (or the birds are not eating it). I have noticed my birds get bored and irritable in hot weather and if they dont have something to peck at they will peck at each other and this addresses that matter too.
Why are you advising this? I know of few electrolyte premixes that do not contain additional vitamins and to my knowledge the vitamins can do no harm whatsoever.
It IS important that you administer the CORRECT dosage into the water > the bird will always choose the water which it is used to (so will not drink from the electrolyte water) and IF electrolytes are indicated then the electrolyte water should be the only water source available.
You can always offer something like watermelon during the hot temp daytime to supply an additional source of hydration if the bird is objecting somewhat to the taste of the "new" water
In very high temperature days you should not be feeding grains and what I do is offer some frozen yogurt treats (I put yogurt into an iceblock tray)along with setting out some cool watermelon.
Thank you for asking - here's my reasoning:
Honestly - because it's what I've done and I've seen them drink both. I started doing so after I had read a good poultry source that advised it. It makes sense to me. If the birds were drinking a lot of plain water, they wouldn't need electrolytes necessarily to treat for dehydration necessarily. But my recommendation in THIS case was because this bird wasn't a sure case of dehydration. This bird is a "maybe the heat is bothering her" case. ...
The advice from all the experts (which I am not > meaning I am not qualified to speak against that which is advised by an expert/veterinary articles) is to give as the SOLE source of water (if in doubt then only give for two or three days or until the bird has recovered and is no longer showing symptoms) > the advice is also for four days (except in cases of heat stress where the bird is panting (which I understood from the OPs post was the case with this bird) > panting will cause acidosis creating an electrolyte imbalance and as long as the bird is panting then electrolytes in the water is indicated is my understanding of the literature written on the matter from veterinary sources (altho in this case of suspected heat stress one can give a lesser dosage >dosage listed on the package is the MAX and should never be exceeded) is my understanding. Please read here to understand "electrolyte imbalance and dehydration basics:
http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=emergencies&action=display&num=1162030046
...articles in the link below alos have some incredibly helpful info on understanding dehydration/electrolyte imbalance specifically related to heat stress:
http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1183206527
... after reading the above it is apparent that rehydration/electrolyte imbalance issues is not as simple as "the bird drinking sufficiently" (altho this is often the underlying issue in matters of illness) ... in some forms of electrolyte imbalance (heat stress or shock or polyuria and in particular: dehyration which has exceeded the boundary to which oral rehydration measures are insufficent to address the matter) , drinking plain water (often to excess) can actually exascerbate the condition (which does occasionally happen > I have seen posts which are blaming this on the administration or incorrect administration (claiming too much or for too long) when I suspect that there was other issues spoken of in these articles which would have been impossible for the layman OR vet to know without some diagnostic testing and which oral measures of admin of electrolytes simply was insufficient to deal with the matter. What it boils down to is that oral rehydration measures with a "standard" electroyte is not always sufficient to address all rehydration/electrolyte imbalance problems.
There are no lactose problems with yogurt... greens however (as most go wild for them and will pig out) can be an issue in hot weather as they can cause polyuria when eaten in excess, exacerbating hydration problems. As the articles advise to take away all food sources during the day (and then they are talking about processed feed grains etc.) then the frozen yogurt treats helps to address the (nutrition) problem arising from this i.e. that this advice is the reason it is also necessary when following it to give a general supplement (birds eating less). Yogurt will provide more nutrition than fruit treats given for hydration measures during the daytime when the feed is not there (or the birds are not eating it). I have noticed my birds get bored and irritable in hot weather and if they dont have something to peck at they will peck at each other and this addresses that matter too.
Last edited:
I wish we could offer yogurt here. Even though it's produced through heat, it's so hot here that really we can't offer anything like that as it goes off (and attracts flies) so quickly. Fruit - things like that - we can.
On the electrolytes, I still stand by my opinion that when I read the post I didn't feel that we were talking about a true diagnosed condition of dehydration. So I stand by what I said. That's why the board is here - because we are not vets, we cannot see the bird, and two different opinions of what it could be give the person (who IS there) the option to choose which ever one she feels is the most pertinent.
And as for water - not excessive water drinking, but regular water drinking on an otherwise hydrated hen is what I was talking about. I can probably find 1,000 different situations, but the one I was talking about was a hen who is drinking normally. Not excessively. Pale comb isn't the way I'd diagnose dehydration. Testing the tenting of the skin is. I'm leaving that one up to the owner as she was advised by another poster to do so and can decide based on that whether or not the bird is hydrated.
Otherwise we can't look at one and decide he is or isn't electrolyte imbalanced. Much less through the internet.
On the electrolytes, I still stand by my opinion that when I read the post I didn't feel that we were talking about a true diagnosed condition of dehydration. So I stand by what I said. That's why the board is here - because we are not vets, we cannot see the bird, and two different opinions of what it could be give the person (who IS there) the option to choose which ever one she feels is the most pertinent.
And as for water - not excessive water drinking, but regular water drinking on an otherwise hydrated hen is what I was talking about. I can probably find 1,000 different situations, but the one I was talking about was a hen who is drinking normally. Not excessively. Pale comb isn't the way I'd diagnose dehydration. Testing the tenting of the skin is. I'm leaving that one up to the owner as she was advised by another poster to do so and can decide based on that whether or not the bird is hydrated.
Otherwise we can't look at one and decide he is or isn't electrolyte imbalanced. Much less through the internet.
- Jan 11, 2007
- 4,870
- 73
- 251
Quote:
the temp she posted falls into the EMERGENCY range on the chart ...that means (according to the experts) she should give electrolytes...from the second link I posted:
http://www.rci.com.au/en/video/heatstress.php
the temp she posted falls into the EMERGENCY range on the chart ...that means (according to the experts) she should give electrolytes...from the second link I posted:
http://www.rci.com.au/en/video/heatstress.php
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