Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[frenchblackcopper]

Okay,,being a half-wit on genetics,it seems to me when the chromsomes are lining up each chromosome from both the male and the female each has specific locations for certain developements of the chick-bird-peahen or Peacock down the road.Just as with humans,DNA inside the cell actually is what makes everything unique.Peacocks has 78 chromosomes.39 coming from each parent.
Of these 39 locations each specific to an individual trait,DNA then comes into play for the minute diffrences within same-like gened birds. Since there is 3 patterns within peacocks,pied,wild and b/s,when the chromosomes are "liing up" if one parent has the "wild-barred" pattern and another has the "black shoulder" pattern,how is it decided who wins out And what happens to the losing gene? I mean if the eventual peachick turns out to be black shoulder,it still has the barred winged pattern from the other parent. Just as blue eyes are dominate in humans,what about couples who has brown and blue eyes? Sure,most all kids would have blue eyes but the brown gene is still there. Or is it the twisted matrix of long DNA strands that decides on minute details? For me to fully understand genetics,I like the hands on type of learning which means pictures.I have yet to see a drawing of a peafowl chromosome with known "markers" indicated within that chromosome.I do understand the hen always decides the sex of the peachick. I need to do a little more catching up on reproduction and cell division before I really make myself stand out here as a bat cr-p crazy person. Much has changed and tons more knowledge is now known on genetics than what I learned back in high school decages ago.

 

[AugeredIn]

Let me go ahead and throw out another hand grenade. Split pied birds almost never show any visual clues.

That sure is not what we tell everyone!

 

[AugeredIn]

Okay,,being a half-wit on genetics,it seems to me when the chromsomes are lining up each chromosome from both the male and the female each has specific locations for certain developements of the chick-bird-peahen or Peacock down the road.Just as with humans,DNA inside the cell actually is what makes everything unique.Peacocks has 78 chromosomes.39 coming from each parent.
Of these 39 locations each specific to an individual trait,DNA then comes into play for the minute diffrences within same-like gened birds. Since there is 3 patterns within peacocks,pied,wild and b/s,when the chromosomes are "liing up" if one parent has the "wild-barred" pattern and another has the "black shoulder" pattern,how is it decided who wins out And what happens to the losing gene? I mean if the eventual peachick turns out to be black shoulder,it still has the barred winged pattern from the other parent. Just as blue eyes are dominate in humans,what about couples who has brown and blue eyes? Sure,most all kids would have blue eyes but the brown gene is still there. Or is it the twisted matrix of long DNA strands that decides on minute details? For me to fully understand genetics,I like the hands on type of learning which means pictures.I have yet to see a drawing of a peafowl chromosome with known "markers" indicated within that chromosome.I do understand the hen always decides the sex of the peachick. I need to do a little more catching up on reproduction and cell division before I really make myself stand out here as a bat cr-p crazy person. Much has changed and tons more knowledge is now known on genetics than what I learned back in high school decages ago.

Dang you just jumped right in to the deep end!

Let me throw a few things out here. I will take your word on the number of chromosomes but each chromosome can have numerous gene pairs so there are more than 39 "locations". But you are correct in that what is in each of those locations makes the bird what it is.

Also I agree that there are certain "markers" that are defaults. In peafowl some of those defaults are the IB color and normal patterns.

I don't think we have to get into any of that to have the discussion herein. We can discuss individual locations in the chromosome make up without having to know how many there are and exactly where they are at. We do need to accept, however, that absent any "markers" in the locations we are discussing, the normally dominant locations (color and patterns) control. We do need to consider whether one marker or both markers are needed in a location to have a visual impact. We will also need to, eventually, consider that some "locations" are sex linked.

The visual differences that we see are actually mutations to an incredibly small part of the makeup of a bird.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

AugeredIN,,The "Split to" I think needs to be eliminated,or the phrase changed. Since every color-pattern of peafowl all have originated from India Blues,India Blues would then be "split to" everything,,,correct?? If IB is the foundation color,somehow there must be ways these other colors have appeared.What does it take to trigger that new color to come out? What causes some colors to be depressed or never come to the top?

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Maybe I need to go have another bowl of chili and cold glass of chocolate milk?

 

[AugeredIn]

AugeredIN,,The "Split to" I think needs to be eliminated,or the phrase changed. Since every color-pattern of peafowl all have originated from India Blues,India Blues would then be "split to" everything,,,correct?? If IB is the foundation color,somehow there must be ways these other colors have appeared.What does it take to trigger that new color to come out? What causes some colors to be depressed or never come to the top?

Let me give you my take on this.

First, I think you are right in that very IB bird carries the "locations" for all of the mutations in its genetic makeup whether or not it has markers in those locations. I just think at those locations there is no mutation. I don't think that means that the Ib bird is split to everything. In my way of thinking you have to have at least one marker in the location of discussion to be split to something.

I really don't think we will ever necessarily understand where in the genetic makeup the mutations occurred nor do I think it matters. Let me go deeper. I would bet that the colors we see in peafowl are actually due to many hundreds of gene pairs or locations. The bronze mutation may be the result of a mutation in one location or more than one of those locations. It really does not matter to us because all of the mutations to create bronze are passed on in a mating just as the normal genes have been passed on for generations. Since this is the case, we can simplify, and call the bronze mutation as being a single location. Does that make sense?

I did not want to dig to deep here for fear of losing folks but I think that is fairly easy to understand.

My take on the IB color and pattern being underlying is no different than the discussion above. There is a set of genetic makeup that god/evolution gave to the birds and short of any mutation spontaneously occurring or any existing mutation being bred into a bird, those genes will be dominant. They are already there.

Give me an example of colors being depressed and not coming to the top. I want to make sure I follow you.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

One last question before I hit the fridge,,,again,,has anyone out here ever,,ever bred two identical birds,each with identical "splits",that has ever hatched out a peachick of the "split" color or pattern? I'm going into "time out",I can see it

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Since IB is always the dominate color when breeding to any other color,all other colors are being depressed,unless both parents are of the same color mutation. Breeding IB to Bronze will always give you IB Phenotype peachicks,,but sometime,somewhere,someplace during all the peafowl matings that has occured,both parents who had hidden-drepressed genetics other than the color of IB,,hooked up for a walk,,and out came Midnight,Purple,Cameo,White,and so on.

 

[AugeredIn]

While you are getting your chili and milk let me speculate. If by repressed colors you are thinking that colors like bronze, midnight, purple, etc.. are always there and are repressed, I do not believe that is correct. There are a bunch of gene pairs that dictate a birds colors at various locations. Those genes normally dictate an IB bird. One day during the creation of an egg or sperm the gene code got corrupted in one or more locations and the markers changed in those locations the result is the new color.

Think about this simple example; There is a feather on a bird that is purple. We all know purple is the result of a mixture of red and blue. So lets assume that god/evolution created the bird with a gene pair that is some shade of blue and another gene pair of a shade of red. Noramlly the combination for that feather creates a purple shade. Well one day during the creation of a sperm or egg, the creation goes wrong and the gene pair that was controlling the blue part of the visual result gets turned off. The marker is left out. Now you have a bird that has a red feather instead of purple. Note I have excluded the fact that the bird would just be split to that mix up initially and would have to be mated to another split bird.

You could also say that the same bird has a gene pair location that controls yellow for that particular feather. That gene pair exists but god/evolution long ago decided it would be in the best interest of the bird to have that marker absent. Lets says it gets turned on. Now you have all three colors turned on and that could be brown.

 

[Arbor]

Since IB is always the dominate color when breeding to any other color,all other colors are being depressed,unless both parents are of the same color mutation. Breeding IB to Bronze will always give you IB Phenotype peachicks,,but sometime,somewhere,someplace during all the peafowl matings that has occured,both parents who had hidden-drepressed genetics other than the color of IB,,hooked up for a walk,,and out came Midnight,Purple,Cameo,White,and so on.

With the sexlinked colours it would seem "easier?" (Maybe not the right word) for a mutation to become apparent. Since the male only has to have one mutated gene, it would occur more frequently than let's say a pairing of midnight mutant carriers. This might explain why cameo has occurred as a mutation more than once (sorry, history of mutations as listed on a breeders site, as well as photos of a wild cameo hen in India - originally linked by minxfox). The non sexlinked ones have mostly been found in captive flocks, where inbreeding likely occurs in higher %s