Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[Rosa moschata]

Now this is a conversation I would like to have. I have had multiple different answers from folks that should definitely know. Are you saying that the silver pied mutation is a different mutation than white eye on the same gene pair? If so do you have a picture of a bird that is pied white eye that does not have a silver saddle? What does a bird split to silver pied look like? Is it different than a dark pied bird or a bird split to white eye? Or, how do you know a bird is split to silver pied or can you even tell?

I produced what I believe, but cannot yet prove, is a spading bronze silver pied peacock from a visually bronze bird that had a few white flights and a few white eyes. The hen is actually spading split bronze with white flights but really does not appear to be white eye. They were sold to me as a spalding bronze split white and white eye cock and spading split bronze & split white hens. I will not mention names but they came from one of the biggest. Spring of 2012 this pairing produced an almost all yellow chick that shocked me as it should not have happened. I ASSUMED that I had mislabeled the egg. That bird certainly appeared to become a bronze silver pied hen but I lost it at about 9 months (broken neck).

This year the pairing produced four mostly yellow chicks and I dang sure did not mis-label these. One died at about three weeks. One is what I now call loud pied bronze hen. She is 60-70% or more white and obviously split white eye from the "dusted grey" color. One is a spading loud pied and the male is, from all appearances, silver pied. He is not old enough, however, to have the adult saddle feathers to see if they are silver. I stupidly traded this bird before thinking about the implications as I had ASSUMED from previous information that there was a silver pied gene. It was part of a trade that was so beneficial to me that I had to do it and I already had a bronze silver pied one year old male for next year.

Your thoughts?

It's really hard for me to say for sure, but I'm supposing that the peacock is Bronze Single Factor White Eye split to Pied, and the peahen is Spaulding Single Factor White Eye split to Bronze and Pied -- or the Pied and White genes are the other way around in the pair. Your Bronze Silver Pied offspring hit the lottery, and inherited two copies of Bronze, two copies of White Eye, one copy of White and one copy of Pied. If my assumption about the pair is correct, that's a 1/32 chance of occurring.

How to figure the odds? If you remember back to learning about probability math from school, you'll know that when trying to figure the odds of several things occurring together, you multiply the probabilities of each occurring. So the peacock had two copies of Bronze -- so passing on that was a given (i.e. 1). He had one copy of White Eye, so that's a 1/2 probability. He had one copy of Pied (or White, and then the hen had one copy of Pied -- I don't know how to tell apart birds split to Pied from birds split to White), so that's another 1/2 probability. 1 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/4 on Dad's Side. Mom was split to Bronze, so she had a 1/2 chance of passing that on. Mom also had one copy of White Eyed (from what I've read, it's hard to spot them from "normal" hens, but I'm not sure), so she had a 1/2 chance of passing that on. And Mom also had one copy of White (or Pied), and that's another 1/2 probability. So 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/8. Then multiply that by Dad's probability. 1/4 X 1/8 = 1/32 chance of all those things lining up.

 

[Dany12]

Interesting !
Where is the border between Blue silver pied and Blue pied white eyes ?
This bird has silver feathers on his back !


There are several types of silverpied ... very dark to very light.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Also, a few quick questions, since I'm not tremendously familiar with the nuances of the white-spotted mutations as they appear in real life -- how does one differentiate between "dusting" on the back, and what would otherwise be simply "smaller areas of white-spotting"? Could "dusting" simply be an example of the variable expression of the interaction between the White, Pied and White Eyed genes? Do ALL "Silver Pied" peas display the "dusting"? Does the "dusting" appear in other White Eyed or Pied birds (those which are one or the other but not both)? Is the "dusting" the same in appearance in all which display it, or does the "dusting" vary between "powder", "flecks", "spots", "patches", etc.?

 

[Rosa moschata]

Interesting !
Where is the border between Blue silver pied and Blue pied white eyes ?
This bird has silver feathers on his back !


There are several types of silverpied ... very dark to very light.

I wonder if that might be due to 1) simple variable and unpredictable expression of the White and Pied genes when had together, or 2) that either the maternal or paternal copy of the chromosome is more "turned on" in peas, perhaps varying in random patches throughout the body, somewhat akin to the mosaicism in female mammals, most readily apparent in calico cats.

I wonder if "whiter" Pied birds result when the White gene is inherited from Mom than Dad -- or perhaps the other way around. If that pattern is observed, then it could mean that one copy of the chromosome pair is "more active" than the other, depending on maternal versus paternal inheritance.

Personally, I am not a fan of white spotting genes, anyway, so I haven't really looked into it that much. I'm just thinking of things I remember from genetics classes that can possibly be at play here.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Maybe this could also be applied to the "cameo death gene" and perhaps "progressive pied"? Maybe the incomplete replication process is speeding up deterioration? A breeder in NY had a bronze male (the likely source of Loudens progressive pied bronze) that carried the trait, however, when the bird reached the state of being 99.5% white, he was blind. This bird was only a generation or two away from the original bronze male held by Clifton.

Arbor,I spoke with Clifton about this progressive pied many years ago already.What he told me was not good.He tried for years to get offspring from that male and hens that would "progress" and turn white.He was never sucessful by using the direct bird,or linebreeding offspring. He says it was a fluke,or freak of nature.Interesting to say the least, but a 1in a million bird. I heard some of these offspring was bought and is up in Wisconsin and Minnesota now and noone has been able to get this rare genetic matchup to occur again.It would seem to me that the pigment gene of white was actually masked by bronze.Possibly as molting occured and new feathers grew in the masking gene got weaker and the white came to be. So since no known offspring has came about resembling the male,it should have just been put on display in a zoo.And why would anyone try to keep breeding a bird to replicate known health-poor genetic traits such as blindness?

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Also, a few quick questions, since I'm not tremendously familiar with the nuances of the white-spotted mutations as they appear in real life -- how does one differentiate between "dusting" on the back, and what would otherwise be simply "smaller areas of white-spotting"? Could "dusting" simply be an example of the variable expression of the interaction between the White, Pied and White Eyed genes? Do ALL "Silver Pied" peas display the "dusting"? Does the "dusting" appear in other White Eyed or Pied birds (those which are one or the other but not both)? Is the "dusting" the same in appearance in all which display it, or does the "dusting" vary between "powder", "flecks", "spots", "patches", etc.?

Rosa,this IB hen coming 2 year old has a Black Shoulder Silver pied for her mom,and a "who knows" for her dad. I bought 4 breeding aged BSSP birds that was all in an overflow pen with several diffrent colored males and when I got the birds home and put them in breeding pens the egg this hen came from what was laid the first or second day so I know the father was from the previous owners overflow pen. You can see the white lacing on her back and neck feathers and how most of her head is white,much like bssp hens are.Also where her neck meets her body in front she is noticably white in color,compared to the dirty brown look of a standard IB hen.Is this what you consider dusting?

 

[Rosa moschata]

Arbor,I spoke with Clifton about this progressive pied many years ago already.What he told me was not good.He tried for years to get offspring from that male and hens that would "progress" and turn white.He was never sucessful by using the direct bird,or linebreeding offspring. He says it was a fluke,or freak of nature.Interesting to say the least, but a 1in a million bird. I heard some of these offspring was bought and is up in Wisconsin and Minnesota now and noone has been able to get this rare genetic matchup to occur again.It would seem to me that the pigment gene of white was actually masked by bronze.Possibly as molting occured and new feathers grew in the masking gene got weaker and the white came to be. So since no known offspring has came about resembling the male,it should have just been put on display in a zoo.And why would anyone try to keep breeding a bird to replicate known health-poor genetic traits such as blindness?

You're assuming that the cause of his "turning white" was genetic, while it was unable to be reproduced in others, which suggests that it is not genetic. It could very much have been simply a deterioration of pigment-producing cells, and when that deterioration reached the eyes, blindness also followed. Perhaps it was akin to an avian version of vitiligo, or perhaps it was the result of a type of cancer, or even infection. Not everything happens because "the gene for..."

 

[Rosa moschata]

Rosa,this IB hen coming 2 year old has a Black Shoulder Silver pied for her mom,and a "who knows" for her dad. I bought 4 breeding aged BSSP birds that was all in an overflow pen with several diffrent colored males and when I got the birds home and put them in breeding pens the egg this hen came from what was laid the first or second day so I know the father was from the previous owners overflow pen. You can see the white lacing on her back and neck feathers and how most of her head is white,much like bssp hens are.Also where her neck meets her body in front she is noticably white in color,compared to the dirty brown look of a standard IB hen.Is this what you consider dusting?

I don't know what constitutes "dusting" being as I never really paid a lot of attention to how the Silver Pied birds look. Personally, I much prefer the symmetry in an animal's markings, which are (in my preference) unattractively interrupted by white-spotting genes. I was asking others what "dusting" actually looks like, and if it appears in birds that are not Silver Pied, etc.

 

[AugeredIn]

Interesting !
Where is the border between Blue silver pied and Blue pied white eyes ?
This bird has silver feathers on his back !


There are several types of silverpied ... very dark to very light.

Dany12, I don't see the silver feathers? I am talking about the saddle area.

 

[AugeredIn]

Rosa, I have to ask. Were your parents truly clever or is your handle a reference to one our favorite late summer scents?

The dusting we are referring to is a silvery sheen on the back and wing feathers. I cannot make it show up well in pictures but it is obvious in person.

I also am not a fan of white or nearly all white birds. Why blot kurt the beautiful colors in the eye? I am forced to realize that others really like these birds and thus we can sell them easily to help with the farm expenses.

I hope conner hills returns to the discussion. I want to understand whether silver pied is an allele to white eye.