Pennsylvania!! Unite!!

OK, more questions:

1. "Blue" looks the same as "lavender"? Or is the coloration slightly different? Is the term used just to denote genetics? My lavendar-looking chicks do look slightly different from each other, with one especially leaning more toward a charcoal coloring than light gray.

2. Since Troyer's hen was "Blue," then does it mean that I have a 25% chance of a true lavender in this crowd of chicks (although I realize that statistics won't necessarily play out very well with only 7 chicks)

3. Once you have true "Lavenders," will breeding them together create true Lavenders as well? Or do you always have to do a Lavender roo and black hen with a Lavender parent?

Thanks!

1. There are 2 blues and they are very different genetically, but only slightly different in appearance. You can easily find pic of BBS (Black/Blue/Splash) blue Ams, and of course you know what the lavender, aka "self-blue", look like. The word picture I use for lavender is "brushed aluminum". The soft grayish blue color is very uniform. For the other blue (BBS), I think of "blue lace", because the color is not uniform if you look closely. Individual feathers may have darker edging. I don't think that is true of the lavenders.

2. It is highly unlikely that you will get any lavender chicks. That would require that the hen was "split for lavender". Since lavender is fairly new and somewhat rare in Ams, I'd say the chance of this is near zero. That said, every blue chick you now have, is this exact combination, so it is possible if the hen had a lavender ancestor (as all of yours do). What you see as a blue chick is showing BBS blue. Here's why:

It may be hard to believe, but every lavender, blue, splash and black chicken is genetically black (called "extended black"). This EB gene is very dominant over every other color (except dominant white, like commercial leghorns). So the lavender roo passed a dominant EB gene to all his progeny, making every one have at least EB gene and making the base color black for all of them, even the chicks from the EE hens. That is why the chicks from the EE hens look so much like the ones from the blue hen, daddy gene trumped everything and those chicks are all very black!

Except for the ones that got the BBS gene from their mom. About half of her chicks got that gene because genetically a blue bird (BBS blue here) is not "pure" for that gene. They are heterozygous if they are blue, if they have 2 copies of that gene, they look splash, and if they have no copied they are black. Remember that the cock, though lavender, is a black bird as far as the BBS gene is concerned, he has no copies of that, so he can't make a blue chick, only the hen can make a chick blue in this scenario.

So, for your chicks from the blue hen, this is how they look, and the genetics they are carrying:
Black chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), no copies of the BBS gene
Blue chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), 1 copy of the BBS gene (dilutes the black to blue)

3. Lavenders will always breed true. Breeders often cross to black because the lavender genes seem to weaken the birds when inbred, but that's not to keep the color, just prevent inbreeding weakness. Blacks and Splash colors also breed true. It's only the BBS blue birds that don't produce all blue progeny, and that's because they are not homozygous for the BBS gene.

The "recipe" to create a strain of true breeding Lavender Ams from your chicks is really quite simple. Take a black hen from the chicks you just hatched and mate her with either her father (or any pure lavender Am) or a black brother. This should produce either 50% (lavender roo) or 25% (black roo that has 1 lavender gene) lavender chicks. I bet that is what Troyer is planning to do.

Using the blue chicks will do the same thing, but the presence of the BBS gene will make it harder to determine which of the progeny will be true breeding lavender. You might be able to tell by their coloring, but I'm not certain how they will look if they express both types of blue at the same time.
 
1. There are 2 blues and they are very different genetically, but only slightly different in appearance. You can easily find pic of BBS (Black/Blue/Splash) blue Ams, and of course you know what the lavender, aka "self-blue", look like. The word picture I use for lavender is "brushed aluminum". The soft grayish blue color is very uniform. For the other blue (BBS), I think of "blue lace", because the color is not uniform if you look closely. Individual feathers may have darker edging. I don't think that is true of the lavenders.

2. It is highly unlikely that you will get any lavender chicks. That would require that the hen was "split for lavender". Since lavender is fairly new and somewhat rare in Ams, I'd say the chance of this is near zero. That said, every blue chick you now have, is this exact combination, so it is possible if the hen had a lavender ancestor (as all of yours do). What you see as a blue chick is showing BBS blue. Here's why:

It may be hard to believe, but every lavender, blue, splash and black chicken is genetically black (called "extended black"). This EB gene is very dominant over every other color (except dominant white, like commercial leghorns). So the lavender roo passed a dominant EB gene to all his progeny, making every one have at least EB gene and making the base color black for all of them, even the chicks from the EE hens. That is why the chicks from the EE hens look so much like the ones from the blue hen, daddy gene trumped everything and those chicks are all very black!

Except for the ones that got the BBS gene from their mom. About half of her chicks got that gene because genetically a blue bird (BBS blue here) is not "pure" for that gene. They are heterozygous if they are blue, if they have 2 copies of that gene, they look splash, and if they have no copied they are black. Remember that the cock, though lavender, is a black bird as far as the BBS gene is concerned, he has no copies of that, so he can't make a blue chick, only the hen can make a chick blue in this scenario.

So, for your chicks from the blue hen, this is how they look, and the genetics they are carrying:
Black chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), no copies of the BBS gene
Blue chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), 1 copy of the BBS gene (dilutes the black to blue)

3. Lavenders will always breed true. Breeders often cross to black because the lavender genes seem to weaken the birds when inbred, but that's not to keep the color, just prevent inbreeding weakness. Blacks and Splash colors also breed true. It's only the BBS blue birds that don't produce all blue progeny, and that's because they are not homozygous for the BBS gene.

The "recipe" to create a strain of true breeding Lavender Ams from your chicks is really quite simple. Take a black hen from the chicks you just hatched and mate her with either her father (or any pure lavender Am) or a black brother. This should produce either 50% (lavender roo) or 25% (black roo that has 1 lavender gene) lavender chicks. I bet that is what Troyer is planning to do.

Using the blue chicks will do the same thing, but the presence of the BBS gene will make it harder to determine which of the progeny will be true breeding lavender. You might be able to tell by their coloring, but I'm not certain how they will look if they express both types of blue at the same time.

Wow! That's a lot of information! But you definitely answered my questions very well. :) I can see why people would not try to inbreed the lavender gene. Well, unless I can find a non-crowing lavender roo (don't want to bug the neighbors), or maybe borrow someone's next year for a just a few weeks in the late springtime, I don't think that I'll be starting a breeding program any time soon. Keep me in mind, though, if you see a way to start a mid-PA lavender Americauna breeding program that would involve my hens! I'm happy to raise on a small scale. I'm sure the more diversity, the better with breeding birds.
 
It is no wonder hubby and I are putting weight on, I cut up a 5.5 pound chicken into 8 pieces and put it on the grill along with 2 baked potatoes for each, and made side salads.....

hide.gif
. We ate every last bit of it..

It has only been about 45 minutes and he just asked me what is for dessert....?how does ice cream sound?

I've only got my laying chickens now, but we will be getting meat birds that will be raised up strictly for eating purposes. Do you have recommendations? I've been told by the people I got my hens and roo from that we should just hatch from our current buff orpingtons for dual purpose (and that they taste like eating game birds....?). I was initially wanting to get dark Cornish game birds. I'd appreciate any input from you and anyone else who has some experience with this, thanks!
 
It is no wonder hubby and I are putting weight on, I cut up a 5.5 pound chicken into 8 pieces and put it on the grill along with 2 baked potatoes for each, and made side salads.....

hide.gif
. We ate every last bit of it..

It has only been about 45 minutes and he just asked me what is for dessert....?how does ice cream sound?
you are close enough to "Sonic"..isn't their shakes and such half-off after 8pm?..
smack.gif
...hey, I'd be there!!
droolin.gif
...hahaha...good grief, your tiny anyway!!
**DH had pretty much the same thing you had...** chicken breast on the grill (not our own-yet), baked potato(not our own-yet), and sugar snaps(they ARE ours!!)..ahhahaha, the he had a coupke of those mini-cupcakes I made the other night
wink.png


** Thanks all for the Props!! everytime we go by the garden, we pull something or tie something up..always a "work-in-progress"...but with awesome benefits!! The best thing we have ever done was, putting the grass clippings all around/through the garden. That has kept the work of weeding down to an extreme-low!! When the garden gets "put to bed" in the fall, the clippings act as "fertilizer" to the soil..the worms LOVE it!!
We are so blessed with having a grand daughter like Katherine. We are so happy to have the opportunity to watch her and have her here with us as much as we do. Lots of fun and adventurous sleepovers @ grammy and grandpa's! She absolutely LOVES the chickens! Maybe there will be 4-H in her future!!
yesss.gif

1. There are 2 blues and they are very different genetically, but only slightly different in appearance. You can easily find pic of BBS (Black/Blue/Splash) blue Ams, and of course you know what the lavender, aka "self-blue", look like. The word picture I use for lavender is "brushed aluminum". The soft grayish blue color is very uniform. For the other blue (BBS), I think of "blue lace", because the color is not uniform if you look closely. Individual feathers may have darker edging. I don't think that is true of the lavenders.

2. It is highly unlikely that you will get any lavender chicks. That would require that the hen was "split for lavender". Since lavender is fairly new and somewhat rare in Ams, I'd say the chance of this is near zero. That said, every blue chick you now have, is this exact combination, so it is possible if the hen had a lavender ancestor (as all of yours do). What you see as a blue chick is showing BBS blue. Here's why:

It may be hard to believe, but every lavender, blue, splash and black chicken is genetically black (called "extended black"). This EB gene is very dominant over every other color (except dominant white, like commercial leghorns). So the lavender roo passed a dominant EB gene to all his progeny, making every one have at least EB gene and making the base color black for all of them, even the chicks from the EE hens. That is why the chicks from the EE hens look so much like the ones from the blue hen, daddy gene trumped everything and those chicks are all very black!

Except for the ones that got the BBS gene from their mom. About half of her chicks got that gene because genetically a blue bird (BBS blue here) is not "pure" for that gene. They are heterozygous if they are blue, if they have 2 copies of that gene, they look splash, and if they have no copied they are black. Remember that the cock, though lavender, is a black bird as far as the BBS gene is concerned, he has no copies of that, so he can't make a blue chick, only the hen can make a chick blue in this scenario.

So, for your chicks from the blue hen, this is how they look, and the genetics they are carrying:
Black chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), no copies of the BBS gene
Blue chick - 1 copy of the lavender gene (recessive, so it's hiding), 1 copy of the BBS gene (dilutes the black to blue)

3. Lavenders will always breed true. Breeders often cross to black because the lavender genes seem to weaken the birds when inbred, but that's not to keep the color, just prevent inbreeding weakness. Blacks and Splash colors also breed true. It's only the BBS blue birds that don't produce all blue progeny, and that's because they are not homozygous for the BBS gene.

The "recipe" to create a strain of true breeding Lavender Ams from your chicks is really quite simple. Take a black hen from the chicks you just hatched and mate her with either her father (or any pure lavender Am) or a black brother. This should produce either 50% (lavender roo) or 25% (black roo that has 1 lavender gene) lavender chicks. I bet that is what Troyer is planning to do.

Using the blue chicks will do the same thing, but the presence of the BBS gene will make it harder to determine which of the progeny will be true breeding lavender. You might be able to tell by their coloring, but I'm not certain how they will look if they express both types of blue at the same time.
This is awesome!! Explaining genetics in layman's terms is an artform all it's own!! How long have you been doing this? I have tried to read some others explanation's of "genetics"..they will lose you after.."hello"...
*dheltzel, you are a gifted teacher, thank you for hanging out here with us!!!
 
Wow! That's a lot of information! But you definitely answered my questions very well. :) I can see why people would not try to inbreed the lavender gene. Well, unless I can find a non-crowing lavender roo (don't want to bug the neighbors), or maybe borrow someone's next year for a just a few weeks in the late springtime, I don't think that I'll be starting a breeding program any time soon. Keep me in mind, though, if you see a way to start a mid-PA lavender Americauna breeding program that would involve my hens! I'm happy to raise on a small scale. I'm sure the more diversity, the better with breeding birds.

I was thinking that you know 3 people with Lavender Am roos that you raised. Any one of us might be in a place to "borrow" one of your hens to produce some hatching eggs, or loan your roo back, if that meet the neighbors approval. I got to tell you though, the Lav roo I kept is very noisy. Full of himself might be accurate, he has 5 hens, so I guess that is a lot to "crow about".

It would probably be easier to buy some eggs from a breeder of Lav Ams, but this sounds like a more interesting project. Essentially, troyer used your roo to do the standard outcross that Lav Am breeders do improved their bloodlines and backcrossing one of your hens would complete that.

Has anyone else noticed that Ameracauna roos seem especially aggressive? I had 2 black ones that were kept together since hatch and so got along ok. I let them out to free range and there must have been 20 other roos in the barn, but those 2 viciously went after each other. I had to step in because I feared for their safely. I later found 1 back by his old cage, beating the *** out of a caged roo that he had lived next to for months. I put him back in his cage. Some just can't deal with freedom responsibly, I guess.
 
This is awesome!! Explaining genetics in layman's terms is an artform all it's own!! How long have you been doing this? I have tried to read some others explanation's of "genetics"..they will lose you after.."hello"...
*dheltzel, you are a gifted teacher, thank you for hanging out here with us!!!
I love genetics of all sorts. Chicken genetics have some very fascinating aspects and I've been fortunate to have some people on the genetic threads help be understand some of the trickier stuff, like auto-sexing breeds.

We see some genes in a chicken's appearance, but some may be hidden and it's like a mystery or solving a puzzle to try to understand what the rest of that birds family looked like (parents and children). Maybe it's having to "puzzle out" the real genetic make up in order to accurately predict the appearance of the progeny that makes it so interesting for me. I have a group of Easter Eggers now that are breeding sort of true. Most of the chicks are exactly like their parents looked at hatch, but about 25% look entirely different as chicks. There must be a recessive gene in there. I can't wait to see how those feather out. I really have no idea what they will look like.
 
Dheltzel, like usual, I was lost half way into that.

It's not for everyone. I will help you figure out whatever I can. Some just baffles me. Those cochins I hatched from your eggs are absolutely delightful little things. My nieces are smitten with them. Every one looks different, I can't imagine what is going on with the genetics, but it sure makes them easier to name and tame.

I think cochin bantams are now my favorite breed . . .
No, now it's the welsummers . . .
No, it must be those rhodebars . . .

How can anyone choose a favorite?
 
I was thinking that you know 3 people with Lavender Am roos that you raised. Any one of us might be in a place to "borrow" one of your hens to produce some hatching eggs, or loan your roo back, if that meet the neighbors approval. I got to tell you though, the Lav roo I kept is very noisy. Full of himself might be accurate, he has 5 hens, so I guess that is a lot to "crow about".

It would probably be easier to buy some eggs from a breeder of Lav Ams, but this sounds like a more interesting project. Essentially, troyer used your roo to do the standard outcross that Lav Am breeders do improved their bloodlines and backcrossing one of your hens would complete that.

Has anyone else noticed that Ameracauna roos seem especially aggressive? I had 2 black ones that were kept together since hatch and so got along ok. I let them out to free range and there must have been 20 other roos in the barn, but those 2 viciously went after each other. I had to step in because I feared for their safely. I later found 1 back by his old cage, beating the *** out of a caged roo that he had lived next to for months. I put him back in his cage. Some just can't deal with freedom responsibly, I guess.

The 3 Roos I had were almost funny when they fought. They would fight once a month. When you finally rehomed them, they had had 3 fights. They were all nasty fights. And even the "losers" would keep fighting once they were back in the coop - the one would sit up on the bar and pick at the other one's head. The other one would take it for a chance to pick at the top one! Don't know if this is normal - never had other roos - but man they could fight.

They were scared of the hens, though!
 
They were scared of the hens, though!
He most definitely got over that. The hens are all pretty old and they can be cantankerous with each other, but no one messes with the lavender roo. He's first on scene whenever treats arrive, but rarely eats those, just calls his girls over as vociferously as he can. It's fun watching him, he certainly knows what he's doing. The hens all seem to like him too, I have yet to find an infertile egg from the pen.
 

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