Permethrin

[chicknmania]

We have a bad lice infestation which we normally don't have. I know everybody uses Permethrin for feather lice, but Permethrin is quite toxic to anything and very toxic to cats. For that reason, we can't use permethrin dust or spray unless it's on the individual birds, and that is not all that easy. We have wood ash and DE in the dust baths but our flock does not like to dust bathe when it's cold. Anything else we can use?

Is there such a thing as permethrin drops for poultry, similar to what you'd use for dogs/ cats?

 

[aart]

we can't use permethrin dust or spray unless it's on the individual birds,

That's how you should treat for lice anyway.

and that is not all that easy.

Not a fun job at all.

Is there such a thing as permethrin drops for poultry, similar to what you'd use for dogs/ cats?

I guess you could spray into a container and use a dropper, or squeeze bottle, to get it onto their skin(no matter how y ou apply it has to get on the skin). But best to apply to skin around vent, under wings, on belly, and back of neck.
I believe it will somewhat travel along skin like the dog drops do, but not sure.

ETA: in cold weather I would use the dust.

 

[nuthatched]

De is all natural asbestos.
Use the permrethrine on the individual birds, like flea drops.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I don't understand how spraying the inside of a coop after you remove all the liter is going to effect a house cat or dog unless they sleep with the chickens.

Garden pump sprayer and a helper to make quick work of it. One person uses the sprayer and other wearing dish gloves holds the birds, spreads out wing and tilts the bird for application to areas Aart mentioned. Let the bird go and grab the next. Assembly line it in the morning like that as you let the birds out one by one for the day. Shovel out the liter and spray nest boxes, cracks and crannies and roost pole. The coop only needs to be sprayed once to kill hiding pests. The birds will need a second application in 7 to 10 days to kill what hatches from eggs on them now.

It's a burdensome job but if you prepare for it you can get the birds done in less than a minute per bird. Do them all and do the coop the first time. Don't skimp on reapplication of birds 7-10 days later or you've got to do everything all over again. If you wait 14 days then you wasted your time and must do it yet again in 7-10 days. Buckle down and get it done and over with.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I use Permethrin spray as well, the cat stays well away.

but Permethrin is quite toxic to anything and very toxic to cats

CONSIDERABLY overstates the risk, particularly in the quantities you will be using on your birds and (possibly) in their coop. A natural reaction on the skin of all mammals breaks down permethrin rapidly - the reason hunters wash their clothes in the stuff as tick protection, rather than applying it to the skin (like DEET) is not to protect us from the Permethrin, but rather to protect the Permethrin from us. Very little is absorbed thru the skin before denaturing, and what little then enters the blood stream where it is rapidly filtered by the liver and excreted w/o ill effect.

Cats, sadly, lack the enzyme that catalyzes the reaction which denatures the permethrin as rapidly as on other mammals, thus their sensativity to the stuff. Fish, likewise.
But reasonable care and a squirt bottle are far more effective than DE and wood ash, which might have some mild benefit in control, but are essentially useless in the face of serious infestation. DE takes way too long to work, doesn't break the life cycle. Wood ash is even more uncertain.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and purely for illustrative purposes, the LD50 (that is, the dose lethal 50% of the time) orally for a bunch of mammals that permethrin has been tested on ranges from 2-4 g/kg, with most in the mid/upper 3 g/kg. I weigh a bit over 70kg, meaning I'd have to drink between 8 and 11 ounces of pure permethrin to have a 50/50 shot at kicking the bucket, pushing up daisies, and otherwise ceasing to post on BYC.

Obviously, this is a thought experiment, NOT something anyone should try!

The typical spray at TSC is usually 10%permethrin - that's 120 ounces, or most of a gallon of the pre-mix for me to hit the human estimated ld50 dosage. Your chickens should weigh roughly 1/30th to 1/40th my weight on average - it seems "unlikely" you might convince a bird to drink 3-4 ounces of the stuff (6-8 tablespoons) - and then its a coin toss as to whether or no it makes it through.

Basically, its more dangerous than the cuba libre I sip upon while typing this, and roughly as dangerous as the equal parts rum and ice in my glass before I add the coke and a splash of lime.

Hope that provides a useful (and memorable) point of reference.

 

[Shadrach]

We have a bad lice infestation which we normally don't have. I know everybody uses Permethrin for feather lice, but Permethrin is quite toxic to anything and very toxic to cats. For that reason, we can't use permethrin dust or spray unless it's on the individual birds, and that is not all that easy. We have wood ash and DE in the dust baths but our flock does not like to dust bathe when it's cold. Anything else we can use?

Is there such a thing as permethrin drops for poultry, similar to what you'd use for dogs/ cats?

Ivermectin might work. I wouldn't use it. There are a number of things that might work right down to picking the lice off with a pair of tweezers. I've done it for flystrike and it is one of the most disgusting jobs imaginable.

There are other products on the market that need to be ingested by the bird and work by being a poison for mites and lice. The thing that seems to get overlooked with products such as Ivermectin is the lice or mites have to injest it. That means they have to bite and feed on blood or anything contminated with the Ivermectin.
You don't want the lice or mites biting the bird. It's the biting that causes the problems; not that they are on the bird. What would seem to me to be a far better outcome is to kill the lice and mites before they bite.

Permethrin sprayed under the neck feathers, a bit smeared around the eyes with a cotton bud and a spray at the rear end and under the wings will kill the lice.

 

[chicknmania]

I don't understand how spraying the inside of a coop after you remove all the liter is going to effect a house cat or dog unless they sleep with the chickens.

Garden pump sprayer and a helper to make quick work of it. One person uses the sprayer and other wearing dish gloves holds the birds, spreads out wing and tilts the bird for application to areas Aart mentioned. Let the bird go and grab the next. Assembly line it in the morning like that as you let the birds out one by one for the day. Shovel out the liter and spray nest boxes, cracks and crannies and roost pole. The coop only needs to be sprayed once to kill hiding pests. The birds will need a second application in 7 to 10 days to kill what hatches from eggs on them now.

It's a burdensome job but if you prepare for it you can get the birds done in less than a minute per bird. Do them all and do the coop the first time. Don't skimp on reapplication of birds 7-10 days later or you've got to do everything all over again. If you wait 14 days then you wasted your time and must do it yet again in 7-10 days. Buckle down and get it done and over with.

Seriously? In the first place, I'm not talking about a house cat. We have lots of cats running around that are not ours, and our cats have free access to our barn if they want to go out there. You don't think they'd walk around, get it on their paws, and then lick their paws? Um, I do. And further more, the fumes from that stuff are horrible. They could get sick from just breathing it. Not only is it toxic to cats, but also bees and other beneficial insects. I hate it. Anyway, we have one hen who had the lice infestation, and, as I suspected, the reason she does is because she is ill. She has been acting odd off and on for a month or so, but she's an older hen and she seemed to be OK most of the time, she was of good weight, avoided capture, ate and drank, and mingled with the flock, until recently.. I suspect some reproductive cancer, possibly, based on her symptoms. . Typical. I treated her with permethrin spray (there was no powder available) and she is lice free right now. The others have some lice, yes...again typical for all birds...but from examining the ones I was able to catch, they are not infested.

 

[chicknmania]

and purely for illustrative purposes, the LD50 (that is, the dose lethal 50% of the time) orally for a bunch of mammals that permethrin has been tested on ranges from 2-4 g/kg, with most in the mid/upper 3 g/kg. I weigh a bit over 70kg, meaning I'd have to drink between 8 and 11 ounces of pure permethrin to have a 50/50 shot at kicking the bucket, pushing up daisies, and otherwise ceasing to post on BYC.

Obviously, this is a thought experiment, NOT something anyone should try!

The typical spray at TSC is usually 10%permethrin - that's 120 ounces, or most of a gallon of the pre-mix for me to hit the human estimated ld50 dosage. Your chickens should weigh roughly 1/30th to 1/40th my weight on average - it seems "unlikely" you might convince a bird to drink 3-4 ounces of the stuff (6-8 tablespoons) - and then its a coin toss as to whether or no it makes it through.

Basically, its more dangerous than the cuba libre I sip upon while typing this, and roughly as dangerous as the equal parts rum and ice in my glass before I add the coke and a splash of lime.

Hope that provides a useful (and memorable) point of reference.

Thank you, but I'm going to disagree on that. There are people that like that stuff, and people that don't. I don't mind using it on individual birds, but no thanks on the mass application. They have found permethrin traces in the eggs of birds who were treated with it, months after treatment. "No withdrawal period" as some one said on a permethrin related thread on here?, That's laughable. No thanks. Furthermore, wood ash has always had excellent results for us, and was recommended to me by a poultry vet recently as a very effective way to control lice. Maybe not after the fact, but certainly as a preventative or control measure.

 

[aart]

Anyway, we have one hen who had the lice infestation

Chances are all your birds have lice.

They have found permethrin traces in the eggs of birds who were treated with it, months after treatment.

Do you have a source of proof to site?