Permethrin

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you, but I'm going to disagree on that. There are people that like that stuff, and people that don't. I don't mind using it on individual birds, but no thanks on the mass application. They have found permethrin traces in the eggs of birds who were treated with it, months after treatment. "No withdrawal period" as some one said on a permethrin related thread on here?, That's laughable. No thanks. Furthermore, wood ash has always had excellent results for us, and was recommended to me by a poultry vet recently as a very effective way to control lice. Maybe not after the fact, but certainly as a preventative or control measure.

You are disagreeing with math. That's like disagreeing with gravity.

Now, you may have a much lower risk tolerance than what has been established by testing, That's fine if you want to pedestal your opinion over those of greater expertise and experience - but your argument that measurable levels of permethrin remain in eggs months later has more to do with the ability of modern measuring devices than any issue of safety. Later I'll find the study of how long traces remain, then we can do more math. then others can decide for themselves if your risk tolerance appears reasonable on this topic.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Here we go. 1979 study.

Remember, the LD50 for poultry is around 3g permethrin /kg weight, similar to our own, Average weight 1.6 kg chickens were treated with low dose and high dose rates of permethrin, then their eggs tested for radioactive markers. Dose rates were (low) 3.77 mg/bird (approx 2.4 mg/kg or less than 1/1000th the LD50 dosage), which is considered adequate for treatment of lice. High dose (11.94 mg/kg is approx 7.5 mg/kg or about 1/250th the LD50 dosage).

Permethrin levels were undetectable in the whites at 3 days (low dose) and nine days (high dose), having peaked (high dose) at 0.021 ppm. That's .021 mg/kg or 1/142,857th the LD50 dosage. An average egg white is about 30g, so you can do the math as to how many egg whites you would need to consume in a single sitting to reach dangerous dosages. I assure you, you would be dead from other factors LONG before the permethrin got you.
Now, since permethrin is fat soluble, you may be wondering about the yolk - and you should. Permethrin levels could be measured in the yolks to 5 weeks after high dosage - not "months" as asserted above, but certainly weeks. It peaked at .111 ppm, or roughly 5x the concentration in the whites, around day 5. Average egg yolk about 18g. Thats about 2 micrograms of permethrin per egg yolk.

To reach my LD50 dosage of permethrin (again, I'm about 70kg, so we are targetting between 210 and 280 g of permethrin), I'd need to consume 210 (we'll use the low figure) / 0.000002 egg yolks in rapid fashion. 105,000,000 egg yolks later, there's a problem.

Personally, I'm ok with spot treating my flock with permethrin spray when required for mite control, and don't believe an egg withdrawal period is warranted. The math suggests to me, to the EPA, the FDA, to the EU, and a host of other agencies that no withdrawal period is needed, if label directions are followed.

BTW, Permethrins are also used for insect controls on a host of crops you likely consume routinely. The major crops? citrus, corn, potatoes, rice, sorghum, soybeans, sugar beets, sunflowers, sweet corn, tomatoes, and wheat

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Also, someone PLEASE recheck my math. Easy to misplace a decimal when the numbers are that disparate - but I contend that whether its 10,000 egg youlks or 10,000,000 egg yolks, its more than any reasonable human will consume in a short period.

 

[Sally PB]

Also, someone PLEASE recheck my math. Easy to misplace a decimal when the numbers are that disparate - but I contend that whether its 10,000 egg youlks or 10,000,000 egg yolks, its more than any reasonable human will consume in a short period.

Like the old joke about the sun burning out in another 5 billion years, so the prof says to his class.
A student raises his hand and asks, "How long?!?"
"It's estimated to be about five billion years."
"Oh, what a relief! I thought you said, 'Five million.'"

10,000,000 eaten in my entire life (upwards of 22,000 days) comes out to 454 eggs per day. Even if I were able to, I would probably have been burned to death before age 18 by the hydrogen sulfide gas I would have emitted catching fire, since everyone (but me) in my family smoked.

 

[chicknmania]

All birds have lice. All the time. There is no such thing as a bird, wild or domestic, that does not have lice unless they've been recently treated for lice. I never said the rest of our birds had no lice.

Furthermore, Permethrin is not only toxic to cats (check the label on the bottle if you don't believe that) but it is also toxic to beneficial insects such as honeybees, butterflies, moths, and so forth. I will never ever spray or dust the entire premises with Permethrin.

Next time you use it, think about what you are doing.

Really, I've got plenty to do besides quibble about teeny statistics.

Here's the study:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7343077/

Based on that study, I personally would not eat eggs or the meat of treated chickens for at least 3 weeks after treatment. I don't care that the bottle does not specify withdrawal period. Think what you like, but Insecticides are dangerous.

 

[Painted Calls]

All birds have lice. All the time. There is no such thing as a bird, wild or domestic, that does not have lice unless they've been recently treated for lice. I never said the rest of our birds had no lice.

Furthermore, Permethrin is not only toxic to cats (check the label on the bottle if you don't believe that) but it is also toxic to beneficial insects such as honeybees, butterflies, moths, and so forth. I will never ever spray or dust the entire premises with Permethrin.

Next time you use it, think about what you are doing.

Really, I've got plenty to do besides quibble about teeny statistics.

Here's the study:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7343077/

Based on that study, I personally would not eat eggs or the meat of treated chickens for at least 3 weeks after treatment. I don't care that the bottle does not specify withdrawal period. Think what you like, but Insecticides are dangerous.

All birds don't have lice. If you monitor the health of your flock, and treat for parasites when they have them, they won't always have them. My birds don't have lice or mites. I know because I care for them and do thorough checks. Parasites are unacceptable here. If they're found, they're eradicated.

 

[chicknmania]

All birds don't have lice. If you monitor the health of your flock, and treat for parasites when they have them, they won't always have them. My birds don't have lice or mites. I know because I care for them and do thorough checks. Parasites are unacceptable here. If they're found, they're eradicated.

I hate to tell you, but yeah, they do. if birds have lice it does not mean that they are in poor health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_louse#:~:text=Bird lice may feed on,many kinds of bird lice.

Ectoparasites were found on 80 percent of the flocks surveyed, and lice were the most common and abundant. Six different species of louse were found on the chickens, and some individual chickens had hundreds of lice. Sticktight fleas were found in only 20 percent of flocks, but infestations could be quite severe.

A bird louse is any chewing louse (small, biting insects) of order Phthiraptera which parasitizes warm-blooded animals, especially birds. Bird lice may feed on feathers, skin, or blood. They have no wings, and their biting mouth parts distinguish them from true lice, which suck blood.[1] [2]

Almost all domestic birds are hosts for at least one species of bird louse. Chickens and other poultry are attacked by many kinds of bird lice.[2] Bird lice usually do not cause much harm to a bird unless it is unusually infested as in the case of birds with damaged bills which cannot preen themselves properly. A blood-consuming louse that infests Galápagos Hawks is more numerous on hawks without territories, possibly because those individuals spend more time looking for food and less time preening than hawks with territories.

In such cases, their irritation may cause the bird to damage itself by scratching. In extreme cases, the infestation may even interfere with egg production and the fattening of poultry.[1] Unlike true lice, bird lice do not carry infectious diseases.[2] Having coevolved with their specific host(s), phylogenetic relationships among bird lice are sometimes of use when trying to determine phylogenetic relationships among birds.[3]

Earlier all chewing lice were considered to form the paraphyletic order Mallophaga while the sucking lice were thought to form the order Anoplura. Recent reclassification (Clay, 1970) has combined these orders into the order Phthiraptera. The bird lice belong to two suborders, Amblycera and Ischnocera, although some members of these suborders do not parasitize birds and are therefore not bird lice.[4]: 2010–202 

We've had poultry where we live now for 18 years, and I grew up with chickens. We've had chickens live for over 10 years. Yes, I'm pretty sure they had lice. Not infestations, but yes, lice. Were they healthy? Yes, I believe so, since the average life of a chicken is 3 to 10 years. A healthy bird will not have an infestation because they have means to eradicate the lice themselves, or at least keep them under control. That is why they dustbathe and preen, and why wild birds also bathe, dust bathe, and preen. If you provide relatively clean living quarters, a healthy diet, and a means for the flock to dustbathe, they should be fine.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Ectoparasites were found on 80 percent of the flocks surveyed, and lice were the most common and abundant.

All birds have lice. All the time. There is no such thing as a bird, wild or domestic, that does not have lice

80% is not All

 

[chicknmania]

OMG. Whatever. It was "80% of flocks surveyed". At some point, those flocks that didn't have them when they were surveyed, had them at some other time. End of discussion.

 

[Painted Calls]

Wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information.

Those are probably big flocks that aren't monitored like typical backyard flocks. I've had lice on my birds twice in 20 years. Otherwise they don't have lice. If you know that your birds have lice and choose to just ignore it, that's 100% neglect. Just as letting your pet dog live with fleas and worms would be. A parasite is a parasite. I wouldn't ignore lice on my child, lice on my birds, or fleas on my dog.

I wouldn't assume all chickens have them either. They're super common, yes. That doesn't mean every chicken has them. Dust bathing helps prevent them. So does keeping wild birds out of the chicken living area.