Pet Chicken, Attitude Adjustment ADVICE needed

[sumi]

Quote:
I have vetted the idea of caponizing. Though I don't find the principle any more cruel than doing it to any other more commonly sterilized animal (dogs, cats, goats, horses, etc.), I have come to the conclusion that it is a higher risk for chickens in the "pet" context. As I have gathered, it is appropriate for meat production only when a 33% mortality rate is acceptable. Weeble will keep his wobbles. I found a place that would do it, and I would pay for it... but the risk isn't worth the reward. He's not that evil of a little roo.

Sociologically, it is very interesting question... why do humans domesticate animals for purely amusement?
Companion Animals and Us: Exploring the Relationships between People and Pets ; textbook on the subject
http://www.amazon.com/Companion-Ani...1130/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1311806407&sr=8-3
And it definately bears study in different cultures. The Western cultures particularly.

It confounds logical why people keep animals of absolutely no use as pets?! I don't understand why people get dogs and then lock them outside all alone. Especially when that dog isn't serving any sort of protection or alarm purpose. Not to mention, dogs are pack animals... whatever that pack is to that dog it should not ever be forced to be seperated from it. At least for optimum happiness. Many more questions about pet ownership, even with the socially common types, come to mind. But I've already deviated from my core request; for help from people that have TRIED or SUCCEEDED in domesticating a rooster.

This threat is getting very interesting!
Just wanted to say: I have successfully domesticated more than one roo with very few problems.
And ask: Have you read the book "Why do we love dogs, wear cows and eat pigs?" I'll have a look and see what the author's name is.
And an afterthought: a British friend of ours told me how, many years ago they caponized (hope I spelled that right...) a roo and it didn't work out well. The boy was not happy, lost his spunk completely and ended up in the pot. He reckons it was not a good idea.

 

[centrarchid]

Are certain the term domestication is appropriate for intended goal? Domestication usually implies selective breeding. Increased degree of taming or house breaking is better stated goal.

 

[franklinstreetwest]

CENTRARCHID

Mirriam Webster online dictionary
Domesticate:
1: to bring into domestic use : adopt
2: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans
3: to make domestic : fit for domestic life
4: to bring to the level of ordinary people
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dogs and sheep were among the first animals to be domesticated.
Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. A defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans. Humans have brought these populations under their control and care for a wide range of reasons: to produce food or valuable commodities (such as wool, cotton, or silk), for help with various types of work (such as transportation, protection, and warfare), scientific research, or simply to enjoy as companions or ornaments.[citation needed]

Wiki certainly supports your implication of selection as a mode of domestication. Though Mirriam Websters second citation of "domesticate" could be construed to support the process of behavior modification to suit an enviornment.
I inferred it to mean both training in captivity as well as human breeding and selection to specific traits. As my interest is in behavior, I overlooked the important selective breeding aspect. Thank you for adding that to the discussion.
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SUMI
Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism
Melanie Joy PhD (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Dogs-Pigs-Wear-Cows/dp/1573244619

I have not read that book. It sounds like an interesting perspective on the treatment of animals in industry. In particular the food industry. I looked up a YouTube video of her, she is very well spoken. I am curious, does the doctor condone the keeping of any house pets as a part of her animal wellfare belief system? I suppose I should read the book! The situation of taming a rooster, a psychologically perceived food tool, into a house pet is a transition in socially conditioned thought. In the video she illustrates a situation of enjoying a delicious meal... only to find out later it was "Golden Retriever", and how would your perception of the meal change? Would your perception change? I ask myself, could I eat my dog or cats? Could I keep some as pets and some as tools? It is also interesting that other countries have drastically different cultural norms when it comes to what animals are food and what place pets have in a human enviornment.

Any tips or tricks on dealing with different behaviors you have encountered while working with your rooster?
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PELE
It is hard sometimes to keep those literary guns on safety!! I had to delete a firey response to an amazon review just last night.

Breeding to aesthetic traits is an interesting practice to examine. Should we, shouldn't we, where is the line? And that gets back to a basic question of what is the core purpose of the animal? So many people keep animals for such different reasons, it's impossible to answer broadly in the definitive. My Weeble suffers some of the genetic problems that occur with breeding to aesthetic. He has an extremely domed head that has been noted to make him more susceptible to wry-neck [can't recall my source citation on this one..read it in a magazine interview of a "prominant" breeder of Polish], which he exhibits symptoms of [self diagnosed]. And he is an undesireable degree of frizzle [Cugly, it still makes me giggle]; from an overview of the Polish Breeders Club website on frizzling, this can cause roosting birds to stay ground birds, severely frizzled birds can lack the apropriate number of folicles to regulate body temperature in extreme heat and cold, and males often mature VERY slowly; as a result of the frizzle genetics.
http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/frizzling.htm
A poor set of genes for survival of the fittest rules. My little frizzle would fizzle.


Thank You for your post.

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Weeble is doing well, the sun is out and it's time for a good tumble in the dirt. He deserves it!

 

[Pele]

Quote:
No, thank you for starting such a facinating thread!

I trust in your self-diagnosis, as you have the physical contact with little Weeble. At this point, I wonder if we could actually call him a fizzle though, since you are seeing genetic adaptations that are more suited to closer contact with humans. There has been a lot of research done with domesticated animals that livei n close contact with humans (especially dogs), and in almost all cases, the animals exhibited signs of adapting themselves to live closely with us. For example, dogs actually mimic some human expressions (for those of you who own dogs, you can sometimes see them try to smile). This is in direct opposite of the instinct that the animal started out with in the wild, where baring teeth was a challenge of authority. There is also more doming of the skull in domesticated animals, bigger eyes, etc. All are traits that make the animal more attractive to us.

Now, it kind of devolves into chicken or egg stuff at this point, because we don't know if these companion animals have developed to be more attractive to humans as an evolutionary strategy (doing so is HIGHLY successful. Making yourself useful to humanity ensures not only genetic propagation on a massive scale, but that you will be fed and given shelter. That's a huge advantage to an organism on a level that usually only parasites acheive. Not that they're equivalent.) We do know that humans purposefully alter animals to get physical results, but are the unintended results that make them more attractive as domestic partners (not in the carnal sense) something that evolution initiated, or that we unconciously selected for? Hard to say.

I'd personally argue that you are absolutely right about him being a genetic fizzle as far as being a traditional chicken. But his mutations have made him highly attractive as a companion animal, which ensures him a better living environment, more food, and better hygiene than any of his chicken counterparts outside. Who needs feathers to control temp when you have feathers that earn you a place indoors with temp control? And his domed skull does make him more prone to wry-neck (I've read that too), but that doesn't matter when you have a human hand-raising you with the medical technology to fix it. And the domed skull pays off, because it makes him more human-like, and pulls on your heart-strings, making you more likely to hand-care for him, and shelter him. It's kind of the same strategy that human babies use (and yes, babies are designed to tweak your maternal instinct into feeding and protecting them).

Facinating stuff. Oh how I love mad genetic science!

 

[franklinstreetwest]

"dogs actually mimic some human expressions (for those of you who own dogs, you can sometimes see them try to smile)." -- Pele

My sister's 9 pound Schipperke would do this. She looked down right demonic, with the exception that her posture and body presentation was not at all aggressive. Not only would she approach us with this behavior, but in kind we would return with smiles and properly reciprocal body language that re-inforced the pack structure. Our response, and I think if you watch most humans responses to their companion animals, was completely without concious thought. Purely innate in nature. I have seen studies that illustrate that dogs have also developed some innate body language that is most associated with human behavior. Specifically the direction that their eyes travel when "reading" a [human] face. We has humans, when reading faces of our fellow man, follow a specific path with our eyes, [I think it's mouth then up to our right, the other's left? scraping mental clutter at the moment] to guage emotion and respond accordingly. If I recall, the study observed that human facial expressions are more pronounced (typically) on one side of the face [the left consistently...but i'm directionally challenged so forgive me if I have it backwards] than the other. It is hypothesized that this specific path of eye direction is something that dogs have adapted to as an evolutionary advantage because they are able to read US.

"We do know that humans purposefully alter animals to get physical results, but are the unintended results that make them more attractive as domestic partners (not in the carnal sense) something that evolution initiated, or that we unconciously selected for? Hard to say." -- Pele

An ABSOLUTELY interesting prospect that skull doming and frizzled feathers(cute and fluffy puffy, uselessness) as an aberration, could in fact be a force of nature that makes it more attractive to human sympathy. Thus ensuring the perpetuation of it's line. There is a Russian study of fox that resulted in the mutation of fur color and verbalizations. They selected the most docile from a series of litters. Then bred those to one another; repeated this for "X" amount of generations. Eventually the offspring began to bark, wag their tails and had [cute] spotted coat patterns. Although humans were selecting for one specific trait [docility], other traits that trigger strong responses in human nature began to appear "naturally".

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Took Weeble to the greenhouses today...

During the car ride he exhibited panting and mild agitation. This could have been due to the heat, change in enviorment, or other factors I haven't considered. Upon arriving, I let him out of the carrier and he commenced foraging enthusiastically. This was accompanied be frequent clucking and cooing. I responded by talking to him with an intonation of voice that complimented his tenor and meter. Eventually, he wandered further away, content to stay within sight. My concern for his welfare dictated my behavior insofar as I kept him in sight. When I was out of sight, he began to cluck a locating signal. When I would go to find him, he ran to me with a different tone of clucking, then followed me around the property making certain to not loose me. On occassion I would approach him at his front with an [unintentional] quickness of motion that would trigger a "sparring" behavior... though I know it was because I startled him, I respond to the sparring by firmly holding him at his neck/shoulder area. I bear him to the ground and hold him there until he "relaxes" his behavior. After I release him, he sits for a short time, and cooes. When I see him begin to get up from his submissive position, I pick him up and hold him in my lap on his back. While doing this I groom and talk softly to him. I continue this until he quits fidgeting. Then I return him to the ground to run free. He stays close and cooes frequently for an extended amount of time. Then he begins to roam at greater distance.
Next his behavior became more intimate. He stayed very close under foot and on heel. I decided he seemed hot and tried to give him a bowl of water. He was panting and fluffing his feathers, but would not drink. It occured to me that his water source has been a hampster water bottle, he might not recall how to utilize a basin of water as a drinking source. I made drinking motions with my fingers and hands in the bowl of water. It appeared as though he observed the action and repeated it. At which point he drank copiously.
After satisfying his thirst, he began to coo long and mournfully. His body language read like "cuddling" behavior. Crouching, head tucked back, eyelids half closed, body positioned close and sidelong against mine... I picked at his new head and neck feathers. He responded with high pitched cooing and relaxed body language. The rest of the day he stayed very close and spent a lot of time grooming.
On the car ride home he showed none of the previous signs of agitation, that he exhibited during the car ride to the greenhouses. He preened and rested the whole way.
When we got home, I put him in his habitat in the house. Mike let him out to run around the pantry/sub-kitchen while he cooked. J.A.C.(JustAnotherCalico), the half ferile cat we have indoors part time, decided to make a dominance play with Weeble. They both remained face to face, about 8 inches apart, neither approached aggressively. A couple of warnings were thrown out by both. Subtle head movements and body twitches were visible. It was really fun to watch. JAC the cat ended up batting a couple of swats that carefully missed him. Weeble made a couple of strong, mock steps towards her... In the end they both walked away like niether existed. It was illuminating.

 

[sumi]

Doesn't sound like you need advice, you are doing a great job with him!

I had one roo that was incredibly loving until he hit his teens, then he got aggressive. At first I got mad at him, but then I made an effort to be nice, cuddle him lots, watching out for the beak, of course. I got the impression that he was confused, loving one moment, attacking the next, loving the next. I had to really work with him, remind him that I'm still his friend etc. Eventually he calmed down and behaved himself. It wasn't easy, I had to be patient, which was difficult when he took bites out of my arms! But it paid off. Out of the 5 roos I've raised like this, in the house, he was the only one who did that. It did help that I adored all of them and they knew it! My chickens respond well to being loved and cuddled, which often surprises people. They don't think chickens have that kind of feelings, which is convenient, when you eat chicken. I don't.
I would eat dog though
I'm open minded about animals, I don't see one group as pets and another as food. I like all of them and if they make good pets, great. So long as the animal's happy with the situation. I wouldn't, for example keep a wild animal/bird as a pet.
My FIL lived in West Africa years ago, he was a doctor. One day he was entertaining American visitors and as it was Thanksgiving, he gave them a Thanksgiving dinner. He couldn't find a turkey, so he served a vulture instead. Did not go down very well...

I suppose some people would eat anything, but many are specific about what meat is O.K. to eat and what isn't and what is "pets".
What I would like is if everyone would respect each others feelings. I get mocked because I won't eat my chickens, but I get funny looks when I say I'd eat dog meat. Why is this? Aren't all animals equal?

 

[centrarchid]

My birds when confined to a sterile environment tend to exhibit repeatative or aggressive behaviors. Household may appear mentally stimulating to us but not Weeble. Can you diversify his foraging environment? Weeble's inner jungle fowl may benefit from the search of eats of various types in various places. I also like to make it so birds can fly up a couple feet for a mealworm or a couple sunflower seeds. Hiding such morsels in small containers may prove helpful. Such mental effort diverts energy away from dominance related interactions.

 

[franklinstreetwest]

Really rainy day. Didn't get any forage time. Found a fat grub and cut up some zuccinni. Eventually the zuccinni was eaten, the grub was a long topic for "conversation" and picking. I have realized that my chickens smell like corn. Or rather their feces do. We have started using corn gluten at the garden center to supress weeds, and it has a pungent aroma that smells like chicken poop. Since it is a product that has never been through the digestive tract of an animal, I have come to the conclusion that my chickens smell like corn. I did notice changes in their waste when I switched to pellets from a custom blended diet that contained very little corn and soy. Immediately I noted that the size and quantity of feces increased. Now I am thinking that the "chicken odor" is potentially a corn odor. I am eager to see if changing Weebles diet will alter the stinky corn fart smell from his habitat.

Sumi:

It does truly help to hear the experiences of others'. I have an idea of what I wish to accomplish, but hearing different situations helps me to gain perspective through other peoples' eyes. That way I can recognize things that I might be doing wrong or right. I can get a better idea of what to expect from him as he grows older. It may also help me avoid making mistakes that will produce negative results.

--Vulture... that is inspired! I am curious what the flavor and texture was. I too am open minded when it comes to pets AND food. I recognize the societal conditioning in myself that would give me pause at dog or cat. But I would give it a fair shake. Meat is meat, some tastes better than others. I tried chicken feet, but I kept thinking about bumblefoot and that ruined it for me. But my pet goat (4-H meat project) was delicious. Sad, but tasty nonetheless!
--By wild bird, do you mean wild captured? Or do you include it to mean captivity bred? I agree totally about wild captures!! I was dropping a rescued (hand raised) Umbrella Crested Cockatoo off at an immaculate private rescue house. The woman had an incredible set-up for her personal family of birds, of which there were at least 10 large and medium sized parrots, and a handful of smaller ones. All were in great physical and mental health. Mostly cockatoo, some african grey and few little guys. One bird was different... you could just tell by looking at her. The other birds were social, met your eyes, responded to whistles and talking, moved around and played with things... happy captive birds with more toys than a spoiled 3 year old and a bigger cleaner play room. This girl though... She sat in the middle of the cage, body prone like she would bolt at any moment, eyes fixed on your movement. The look in her eye was sharp and "calculating". Her cage wasn't open, she didn't play or engage, she just WATCHED. She was a wild caught African Grey. And she is not a happy, well adjusted or even content bird. She is a rescue that they can't rehome because she is dangerous. They explained that she figures out how to jail-break her cage and will attack the other birds. They lost one cockatoo because she broke out of her cage, then into his and injured him badly enough that he died. Another bird whose cage she broke into lost a toe. There are locks on her door. I was told even that has not proved fool proof. She is always working on escape. It must be an infuriating life for that poor creature.

centrarchid:

Thank you for the suggestion of hiding treats and offering greater stimulation in his enviorment. I have been trying to devise a little leg tether for him so that he can accompany me to the garden center. There he would be afforded hours of foraging time on a daily basis (lots of bugs and frogs to chase, greens to graze). The tether is needed to get a hold of him quickly. Inconsiderate customers often bring their "dog children" unleashed and let them bolt from the car doors to explore. In the house it has been second nature to throw different bits and pieces of things down on the floor for him to investigate. Hiding and dispersing the treats is a good suggestion.

 

[franklinstreetwest]

From Weebles day at the garden center.

 

[centrarchid]

See following link for tethers and related equipment. Usual application somewhat different than yours but technology well worked out and better safety minded for bird than something you would have to invent.

http://www.hilltopfeed.net/

I have a family group of trained American games used for eduational purposes. See following link.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=407880&p=1

Effort was made to get birds to fly / run to me when I called their name. They will also enter an animal carrier on their own which greatly reduces handling stress when they have to be moved to a new location. These guys are tame enough that they can be trusted to stay around even when taken to a new location and exposed to people they do not know. I do not know if I could train them to come to me if threatened by a dog but they can easily fly up and out of a dog's reach.