Pied Pattern

[1shotcleaner]

hi all can you tell me what my mut is he is my pet and will be for a long time just wondering what kind of mutation he is? picture is my avitar.

 

[Kev]

Quote:
Doug, if that's the case, how come I never got silver pied out of 2 unrelated silver pied males bred with white-eyed hens split white and whites out of white-eyes over 3 seasons? Chicks came out "IB"(white eyed), pure white, all pieds had low % white on them.

Kev
The chicks that you produce were not pieds they were white-eyes some white-eyes will have a little white on them. The only way to get silver pied out of that breeding is the white-eye hen would have to be a pied white-eye. Your blue white-eye hen is only split white she need to be split pied in order to produce silver pied both parent has to carry the pied and white-eye gene

You're saying that pied and white are not alleles or...? It sounds like you are saying pieds are homozygous pied plus heterozygous white..? Have evidence or something supporting that? I ask as that's against the long time info from UPA and one research I found saying that they are alleles....

The pied chicks WERE pied. Only that they looked like regular pied(non-silver pied) in that they had more color than white. White on wings(not meaning the flights- on the arm part spreading up to shoulders), streaks/patches around head, neck, a few had white spots on back. I kept several hens to breeder age, they certainly were pied.

 

[Kev]

Quote:
Doug, if that's the case, how come I never got silver pied out of 2 unrelated silver pied males bred with white-eyed hens split white and whites out of white-eyes over 3 seasons? Chicks came out "IB"(white eyed), pure white, all pieds had low % white on them.

Not Doug , but in your case Kev the white and split white need to be from whites out of silver pied.

I have a peacock that is Blackshoulder pied white eye, he has all three genes. Now all silver pied carry all three of the genes, but not all birds carring all three genes are silver pied

Burt, first off, I agree there is something different about silver pied. But what exactly is it. If it's simply white, pied and white eye then by that logic I should have gotten silver pieds out of my white split and white hens, because they have the white and white-eye genes, the silver pied male brings in the pied gene. Do you see what I am trying to say?

Saying the whites and split whites need to be out of silver pied does not really tell me specifically what is it that makes them different from my hens. I am REAL curious about the what.

Doug telling me the pied offspring from silver pied bred with white eye split white and whites were not pied completely surprised me.. they sure were pied. Just not silver pied.

Edited to add, I agree need to use whites and splits out of silver pieds for silver pied breeding. I understood that after seeing the chick results. No problem there. What I really want to know is the specifics as to what makes silver pieds different from all other sorts of pied.

I kept some daughters of the first silver pied and bred them with the second silver pied male, did get few silver pied chicks which further solidified my understanding that there's something 'different' going on for them. But I want the exact recipe for silver pied genotype... Just so I understand what is going on.

 

[DMFarm]

Kev
They could produce pied chicks but not silver pied because the blue white-eye hen is only split white. That breeding will not produce silver pieds both parent has to carry the pied gene.

 

[Kev]

Quote:
Are you saying silver pied are homozygous pied plus heterozygous white?

Edited- found the study-

Here's an abstract saying white and pied are alleles.

 

[DMFarm]

Kev
White and pied are alleles but that only 2 genes you have to have the white-eye gene also to produce silver pieds. Both parrent has to carry all 3 of these genes to produce silver pieds.
This year I am working on getting charcoal silver pied in both barred wing and blackshoulder pattern I have only hatched one charcoal color chick it a white-eye or could be a dark pied I have hatched several blackshoulder chicks but want know what they are till they color out I hatched 2 pied white-eye chicks but not charcoal color. The parent are blue split blackshoulder,charcoal and silver pied they are birds I produce a few years ago and this is the first year to breed them together.

 

[Kev]

Doug, I'm trying to understand the part about both parents needing to be pied carriers because that seems to conflict with the concept of pied and white being alleles because alleles are mutant genes located on the same locus. If white and pied are alleles, it means a bird can only be W/W, w(pied)/w(pied) or W/w(pied). (ignoring wild type w+ for now) I'm going with the abstract's notations here- W- white, w(pied) for pied and add We for white eyed below. I think it's very probable white eyed is not an allele to either pied or white.

Here's what I have in my mind at this point:

1)If white and pied are alleles and 2) silver pieds are white, pied plus white eye then a silver pied genotype would be W/w(pied), We/We

My hens are either W/W, We/We or w+/W, We/We. Breeding them with silver pied(genotype above) would give some chicks with the genotype of W/w(pied), We/We. Half of the chicks out of the white hens would have this genotype. Seeing the chick results, I realized it is not this simple. That's the trouble I have with statements saying silver pied are white, pied and white eye- because I had chicks with this genotype and they weren't visually silver pied. What's the genotype of a silver pied?

When you said that both parents needed to be pied carriers.... it could be read to imply that silver pied are w(pied)/w(pied), We/We plus W fitting in this somehow- the only way I could think of making that work was by making white not allelic to pied. That was why I asked if you were saying silver pieds were homozygous pied, because that would be the same as as saying white and pied are not alleles. Hope I am making sense here.

I've entertained the idea that maybe the something unusual about silver pied is involving another as of yet unidentified mutation- possibly a recessive one or needs to be homozygous to express fully the silver pied. That would leave white and pied as true alleles, making their genotype W/w(pied) We/We plus this mysterious something. My cross chicks would have W/w(pied) We/We plus heteroyzgous for the mysterious-something, causing them to fail to express silver pied fully. What do you think of this idea, especially if white and pied really are alleles? Other times I wonder if white and pied are not alleles after all.. but then there's that study I linked to earlier & end up not knowing what to think of this idea.

That's an exciting project- your work with charcoal silver pied. Would love to see pictures when you succeed, of course. I had to give up many of my projects due to forced flock reduction. Really miss out all the excitement of putting certain birds together and being anxious as hatch day appears on those special project eggs... still have yearlings out of barred wing split black shoulder opal bred with silver pied black shoulder hen. If they're still here next year will try hatching their eggs and see if I get so lucky with pied or silver pied opals.

BY the way, you know pictures never really compare to seeing a color in person- in your own opinion how do the colors on opal and charcoals compare?

 

[deerman]

Kev, i wonder if both parents must carry the white eye gene to get silver pied, as you know only one parent needs to be white eye ,to produce white eye birds. Maybe that why my blackshoulder pied white eye was produce, and not silver pied.

 

[DMFarm]

Kev
I think both parent has to carry the pied gene to produce silver pieds. I think white and pied could be allele to each other on pieds but not silver pieds. I have been working on getting opal blackshoulder silver pied for a few years now in 2008 I bought a yearling opal silver pied hen to breed to a opal blackshoulder male he is split pied and also carrys the white-eye gene he is not split white no white at all on him. In 2009 I produce 2 chicks out of her 1 was a opal dark pied and a opal silver pied. This is why I think both parent has to carry a pied gene to produce silver pieds. Have you ever breeded the offspring back to a silver pied to see if it produced silver pied ?

Burt both parent are white-eye the male a silver pied and the hen is a white-eye split white.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

DMFarm,
This chick I hatched out last year,,Charcoal W/E split to Silver Pied,,,I have been told by the lady I purchased the eggs from that last year she sent out 3 Charcoal W/E eggs to her e-bay auction winners,,the other two buyers both hatched out hens,,I was the only buyer who hatched out a male,and from what she tells me,,he is very,very rare at this point,she does not even have one,since she hasn't hatched many of her own eggs,rather she sells them.If I don't get any Charcoal eggs to hatch yet this year, I will be looking for Charcoal W/E hens,or any hens with Charcoal in them for this male for next springs first breeding season for him.Please see what I'm so lucky to have hatched.