Pine and Cedar shavings are dangerous

[SleepyOwl]

...The real knowledge with poultry is experience. So while the "I have always done it that way so it must be ok," as it pertains to poultry, it is the truth, for if you do something wrong for very long, you will quickly find out and you won't be doing it that way again. ...

I agree that experience is the best way to learn. I do not agree that if you do something wrong, you will always quickly find out it is wrong. I can give you so many examples, but here are a couple.
Is it safe to give your young toddler whole grapes? Why not? They will probably end up being just fine if we give them whole grapes. Most kids would be just fine. You can meet 20 familys who all fed their children whole grapes, and they will tell you "go ahead, I have always done it and it has never been an issue." Then you hear about a a few children choking and dying on grapes. What do you do? I know that is easier to explain why it is bad, but you still get the idea.

Than, there is my mom. We ate very bad, unhealthy food, all were formula fed, ect. She says "well, you all turned out ok, right?" Well, no we didn't. Two out of three of us have health issues, me with the most (I am the oldest.) Our youngest sister is only 24, so she might just end up with stuff too. Something can slowly creep up. Sure, eating that way didn't kill us outright, but it very well might have kept our bodies from growing just the way they should, and now we are paying for it.


This is not in argument wether or not you should use pine, only to show why I do not go along with "I have always done it that way, so it must be ok".

 

[Imp]

I have to commend you SleepyOwl for standing up for your beliefs.
Your research is correct. There is a rising tide of evidence that pine, redwood, and walnut, in addition to cedar, may not be safe for animals or humans. Including respiratory disease, liver damage and cancer; often not showing up for years.
Sometimes it's hard for people to accept change. I struggle with it as well. But I can remember when cigarettes were sold as a health product. So I use that as a touchstone.

Imp

 

[speckledhen]

I want to be clear that I have no problem with anyone spending their money on other bedding for chickens if they want to go that way. It's entirely up to you. I'm betting that few folks would even have backyard chickens if they all had to spring for aspen bedding, considering the lack of availability in addition to the huge cost increase over pine.

I just know that not everyone who writes a book knows what they're talking about, with true years of hands-on experience, as many folks on BYC have. There are people here who have been breeding chickens for well over 50 years and if there were respiratory issues with certain bedding products, you can bet they wouldn't be using them, especially the ones with super expensive breeding stock.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
That kind of thinking can go on ad infinitum. Cars kill people...you can get by driving for all your life but someone else got into a car wreck, so now we mustn't drive cars. Grapes are toxic to dogs....no matter that canines have eaten grapes in the wild and in backyards for thousands of years, a dog or two died and now they are considered toxic to dogs. Planes fall out of the sky..it's been proven! When they do, people die...so we must now avoid flying in planes.

Children can choke just as easily on hot dogs and many have done so....more even than on grapes. We mustn't ever feed a child a hotdog now. Chicks have died from being on shavings of any kind, mustn't use them because a few have died...no matter that many millions have been raised on them with success. Must pay attention to the big "WHAT IF" because there have been instances of it actually happening!

Women have died in childbirth, making the act of giving birth a fatal event....no one should have any more children because women have died doing it.

Did you know that many heart attacks in the elderly happen while they are on the commode? Let's stop older people from pooping because it has been known to trigger a dangerous dysrhythmia in the heart....I simply do not care that people have been pooping since they were created, there have been those who have died from it, so I really don't want to take that risk. Anyone figure out how to get the insurance to pay for a colostomy for grandpa when it isn't needed? Heck...can't do that even, cause people have DIED during surgeries. Grandpa could die if I have them do surgery to place a colostomy so he won't have to strain to get poop out of his rectum and have a heart attack. Oh, what to do????

It's called acceptable risk and every adult has to sort out what is an acceptable risk about all the myriad things they do each day and decide if they are going to make themselves crazy over weighing all the risks so carefully that they never DO anything, really, because doing anything at all leads to risk taking behavior.

 

[SleepyOwl]

I actually do agree with you Beekissed. We take risks with everything we do, and we have to decide if what we are doing is worth the risk. Grapes are easy to cut up, so I did until they were a bit older. Eating all whole organic food is what I should be feeding my children, but I can't afford that, so I don't. I will probably use pine with my chickens when they are older, because all of the reasons that were stated. I might even use it with chicks if I start raising a large amount, and using alternitives quits working. For now, using what I am works just fine, so I will go with it.

I am a bit crazy anyway, as I am avoiding pine for my chicks, yet I let my 7 year old daughter ride little 4 wheelers all weekend. My heart was in my throat for 2 days, but you do have to trust sometimes. (I probably should have said no, but I know she is responsible, and I just kept praying.)

I still do not go along with "I have always done it that way so it must be ok,"

 

[devora]

I just know that not everyone who writes a book knows what they're talking about,

Great point.

The imprimatur that comes w/ the printed word can be meaningless on some issues.

 

[bruceha2000]

Which is great...for maybe up to a week. Afterward, the smell will get to you with paper towels as the only bedding.

Hmm, not my experience. Only on the first flock and they are just pushing 3 weeks in the bathtub so I don't have a lot of experience. But ... I use paper towels over newspaper (since it might be slippery) and the place doesn't stink. We change the paper towels a few times a day though and replace it all every few days. And I have tossed some dry grass in but don't have any more. They'll be moving to the coop later this week or weekend (soon as I finish it). They still fit in the tub OK and I duct taped a stick across it for a perch but they are running over each other when they all decide to go nuts - like when we open the clear shower curtain. Yep, time to move to the 'big house'.

Bruce

 

[speckledhen]

You can use paper towels as long as you like. For me, it's way too expensive and time consuming as well as too smelly.

I have a really good sense of smell, way more sensitive than my husband's (as I think most women do, to tell the truth

). I smell the poop when I use paper towels. When I use the pine, I smell the pine.

 

[bruceha2000]

It doesn't smell like a rose garden, but not all that offensive to us. No matter, they moved to the coop this afternoon after some time in the 'playpen'.



I went to say goodnight and the silly things were all in a pig pile in the back right hand corner. So what is wrong with the big box in the front right corner on end with the heat lamp in it????

Bruce

 

[jeapa]

It doesn't smell like a rose garden, but not all that offensive to us. No matter, they moved to the coop this afternoon after some time in the 'playpen'.



I went to say goodnight and the silly things were all in a pig pile in the back right hand corner. So what is wrong with the big box in the front right corner on end with the heat lamp in it????

Bruce

 

My guess with this heat they don't need or want that heat lamp. How hot was it in the coop? I am am not sure why you would want to have a heat lamp in the coop with fully feathered chicks especially with as hot as it has been?

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.