Plymouth Rock thread!

[BRITROCK]

HI Mitch
Interesting post you have written, its seems to me you are trying to achieve what most breeders are striving towards? breeding beautiful but useful birds. But If the SOP isn't followed you may as well breed hybrids with the points you are looking for? the standard is there so every breeder knows what to aim for. The TYPE the SOP gives us, no clue into the productiveness egg laying capability that's up to the breeder. Showing is an extra inconvenience for most of us but it does make you make the correct and often difficult decisions when required. I breed to show standard but I will not allow utility vigour etc. to be forgotten.Going to a show you see points in other birds which you need to improve in your strain. The SOP is there for everyone to see, but how often do you see birds offered saying 'show quality' which most good breeders would have culled? This forum has many different types of poultry fanciers all with differing views on the correct way to breed birds but everyone can see a bird of quality but not how productive it is, that's down to you. If Iived in the States I would put myself in not preserving the heritage lines but improving them with out-crossing I speak to a guy in Texas who's cockerels don't crow until 8 months pullets start laying after 9 months! my cockerels crow at 10 weeks laying at 26 weeks. Look at barred rocks on Facebook that's me. Keep them pure but breed plenty and select the very best to breed from, my mantra.

 

[Chickens Naturally]

A pipe dream???!!!! NEVER....In my world (to borrow a paraphrased line from the Good Book) All things are possible with God

Now, you will probably sacrifice "perfect coloration" to achieve what you are looking to do....but in the words of many a good breeder, ya gotta build the barn before you can paint it. I would guess you might mess up some of the "perfect barring" seen in some exhibition lines, but if that works for you, it will still be a Rock

No, I'm not surprised that many of you are working toward the utility traits as well, I'm just thinking about a possible different approach. Some maintain lines of fowl for crossing and of course the offspring didn't breed true for all traits and the benefits were hybrid vigor, but the point was to maintain compatible lines for crossing. I'm just thinking with the primary focus of so many being 'perfect coloration' etc.; What if someone, like myself, started a line with focus on utility traits first for the purpose of crossing also, but not undervaluing the potential to produce good results on its own?

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Hello, Mitch. Best of luck in your endeavors.

The hard working Rock that Fred is talking about is embodied in my Dottie, who takes her two chicks far and wide on this wooded mountain property. I must go searching for them when it's time for them to come home, at least if it's before she as mama decides it's time for them to come back to the coop. They've been schooled, let me tell you. They have plenty of cover in which to hide, but they work this place like it's a paying job. The 9 week old chicks are 1/2 Delaware as that is the only LF rooster I have at the moment, another very industrious breed, and the crisp barring of the Marvin Stukel line even shines through most of the crosses.

Both my hatchery and heritage BRs work over this property very well when allowed to free range. They don't stick close to home, that's for sure.

My first BR rooster love was a big old McMurray guy, if some of you older members remember my Hawkeye. His best traits were size and temperament, but other than that, he looked pretty much like most hatchery BR roosters look. He made me love Barred Rock roosters, in particular, but I cannot deny the draw of the great quality old line Barred Plymouth Rock male. This was Rex as a "teenager" before he hit his full size. Later on, as an adult, he went on to his reward defending his hens from a poisonous snake at Scott's house, but I could look at him for hours and hours. This is why we love the old fashioned BRs. Simply eye candy.

Beautiful story, beautiful birds and looks and sounds like beautiful land too!

 

[BGMatt]

No, I'm not surprised that many of you are working toward the utility traits as well, I'm just thinking about a possible different approach. I never fought a chicken a day in my life, but I know a little about how game fowl are raised. They maintained lines of fowl for crossing and of course the offspring didn't breed true for all traits and the benefits were hybrid vigor, but the point was to maintain compatible lines for crossing. I'm just thinking with the primary focus of so many being 'perfect coloration' etc.; What if someone, like myself, started a line with focus on utility traits first that encompassed genes with several top lines for the purpose of crossing, but not undervaluing the potential to produce good results on its own? If you bread strain A to B, and C to D etc, then it is possible(?) that A, B, C and D could potentially use that source to improve their own lines and also marry 'perfect coloration' with 'perfect function'?

Probably going to step on toes here but it's not my intention. The reason there's not a lot of discussion on crossing strains and such here is because it's easier for a newbie to grasp the concept of "don't cross lines".

What you're talking about by combining strains is a very common practice and can have great results. The risk is when you cross strains you may uncover some faults and some recessive genes that pop up and cause undesirable traits as well as all the good ones you're hoping for. This happens because when you breed one strain for a while it sets it's positive aspects but also sets it's negatives. Non-visible issues can be right beneath the surface, but as long as kept within that strain never show themselves. When crossed to another strain that also has those same issues right under the surface, they may rise up.

If you have a firm grasp of what you want, where you're headed, and are not adverse to BBQ chicken, crossing strains is a great way to reach your end goal, and as you start seeing what you want, then you can set it in your new strain by following line breeding practices which it sounds from your background you're already familiar with.

As far as the general concept of what you're seeking it's very possible. Indeed as others said "you have to build the barn before you paint it." The standard was written for a bird that allows the ideal production for it's breed. SO you should have no issue producing birds with excellent economic qualities and excellent body type according the Standard. Where a lot of "exhibition" breeders supposedly go wrong (although not as often as some would have you think) is when they start selecting and breeding for color or feather quality rather than body first.

That's all probably fairly poorly worded stream of thought, but I hope you can glean something from it.

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Probably going to step on toes here but it's not my intention. The reason there's not a lot of discussion on crossing strains and such here is because it's easier for a newbie to grasp the concept of "don't cross lines".

What you're talking about by combining strains is a very common practice and can have great results. The risk is when you cross strains you may uncover some faults and some recessive genes that pop up and cause undesirable traits as well as all the good ones you're hoping for. This happens because when you breed one strain for a while it sets it's positive aspects but also sets it's negatives. Non-visible issues can be right beneath the surface, but as long as kept within that strain never show themselves. When crossed to another strain that also has those same issues right under the surface, they may rise up.

If you have a firm grasp of what you want, where you're headed, and are not adverse to BBQ chicken, crossing strains is a great way to reach your end goal, and as you start seeing what you want, then you can set it in your new strain by following line breeding practices which it sounds from your background you're already familiar with.

As far as the general concept of what you're seeking it's very possible. Indeed as others said "you have to build the barn before you paint it." The standard was written for a bird that allows the ideal production for it's breed. SO you should have no issue producing birds with excellent economic qualities and excellent body type according the Standard. Where a lot of "exhibition" breeders supposedly go wrong (although not as often as some would have you think) is when they start selecting and breeding for color or feather quality rather than body first.

That's all probably fairly poorly worded stream of thought, but I hope you can glean something from it.

Very understandable, thanks. That’s what I was thinking. In fact, I thought, line breeding and inbreeding was a good way to get those bad traits to show up for dinner err culling! Breed a lot, eat a lot, lol.

 

[BGMatt]

Very understandable, thanks. That’s what I was thinking. In fact, I thought, line breeding and inbreeding was a good way to get those bad traits to show up for dinner err culling! Breed a lot, eat a lot, lol.

It's an easy way to hide stuff too. It's the best way to get consistent results though. I agree on the last part too, as a great breeder and judge once told me "the biggest problem with chicken breeders is most of them don't eat enough chicken."

 

[Chickens Naturally]

HI Mitch
Interesting post you have written, its seems to me you are trying to achieve what most breeders are striving towards? breeding beautiful but useful birds. But If the SOP isn't followed you may as well breed hybrids with the points you are looking for? the standard is there so every breeder knows what to aim for. The TYPE the SOP gives us, no clue into the productiveness egg laying capability that's up to the breeder. Showing is an extra inconvenience for most of us but it does make you make the correct and often difficult decisions when required. I breed to show standard but I will not allow utility vigour etc. to be forgotten.Going to a show you see points in other birds which you need to improve in your strain. The SOP is there for everyone to see, but how often do you see birds offered saying 'show quality' which most good breeders would have culled? This forum has many different types of poultry fanciers all with differing views on the correct way to breed birds but everyone can see a bird of quality but not how productive it is, that's down to you. If Iived in the States I would put myself in not preserving the heritage lines but improving them with out-crossing I speak to a guy in Texas who's cockerels don't crow until 8 months pullets start laying after 9 months! my cockerels crow at 10 weeks laying at 26 weeks. Look at barred rocks on Facebook that's me. Keep them pure but breed plenty and select the very best to breed from, my mantra.

Ok thanks, I’ll look you up! Very good points, I think along the same lines. For sixteen years I’ve bred my own hybrid mutts, some lines very good layers and others good broodies and everything I wanted them to be and I can’t imagine not having something like that in the works, but I’m interested in breeding Heritage Rocks. I do want to breed toward the SOP, I just want to start at the egg level, then the brood level. One thing I’ve noticed about this thread though is that at times it does seem to be self contradictory. So much that I’ve had to go back and make sure I read it correctly. I can only imagine the work that some breeders are doing and I’m the last person who would marginalize that in any way. However, if I read it correctly, broodiness in some lines is nearly non-existent. In another line fertility is low and hatchability is and issue. Yes when compared to hybrids my expectations would be HIGH I know. Five to six eggs a week, I sold my incubators and 100% hatch rate or close to it. What I’m saying is that if my, theoretical, line had reached critical hatchability issues or hens weren’t laying well enough, I may be more apt to outcross to improve that situation while taking a step back from ‘perfect coloration’. I just think true heritage Rocks that lay four or even five eggs a week and birds that dressed out nicely would get my stamp of approval and I could dream of the day also of producing some true show quality birds and in the interim be a POTENTIAL good cross for A,B,C and D lines. I think that’s the difference, you see. Maybe not, I’m just learning here and thanks for your reply!

 

[Mr MKK FARMS]

HI Mitch
Interesting post you have written, its seems to me you are trying to achieve what most breeders are striving towards? breeding beautiful but useful birds. But If the SOP isn't followed you may as well breed hybrids with the points you are looking for? the standard is there so every breeder knows what to aim for. The TYPE the SOP gives us, no clue into the productiveness egg laying capability that's up to the breeder. Showing is an extra inconvenience for most of us but it does make you make the correct and often difficult decisions when required. I breed to show standard but I will not allow utility vigour etc. to be forgotten.Going to a show you see points in other birds which you need to improve in your strain. The SOP is there for everyone to see, but how often do you see birds offered saying 'show quality' which most good breeders would have culled? This forum has many different types of poultry fanciers all with differing views on the correct way to breed birds but everyone can see a bird of quality but not how productive it is, that's down to you. If Iived in the States I would put myself in not preserving the heritage lines but improving them with out-crossing I speak to a guy in Texas who's cockerels don't crow until 8 months pullets start laying after 9 months! my cockerels crow at 10 weeks laying at 26 weeks. Look at barred rocks on Facebook that's me. Keep them pure but breed plenty and select the very best to breed from, my mantra.

Thought you were talking to me cause my name is Mitch too!

 

[LaLa Chickie]

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I feel like I need to say something here... I've been doing my best reading through all the posts. Keeping in mind that everybody has a right to their opinions and preferences. Having said that. I am sad to say I will no longer be following this group/thread. While I think it's great to be preserving a heritage bird, I feel as though I have been made to feel like my Plymouth Rock shouldn't even exist because she's a hatchery bird. Now granted nothing was said to me directly. But it's in the tone of other posts, and in comments made to others that have posted pics. Things like oh that's "just a hatchery bird". I choose not to waste my time reading your posts about who's line is better than who's. I may be new to having backyard chickens but I love my girls! I am confident in their ability to someday provide me with eggs (which is their sole purpose). I don't care if her markings are imperfect. I don't care if I can name to line she was sired from. And I don't care that she will never win a ribbon for best in show! All I care about is having healthy happy birds.

edited by staff

I don't think you were rude. I was having to fast forward and skip on a lot of the information, but it was interesting.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Could someone tell me what line this Barred Rock Male came from?????????????

Notice his tail. Is it a good one???

I read your post last night about getting Barred Plymouth Rocks and wanting to cross four different strains into a line and then choosing the traits that you want or think you would like in a Plymouth Rock.
I have been fooling with White Rock Large fowl off and on for 24 years. I did not really want them but my childhood friend from the 60s shipped them to me anyway. They where fluffy and they were pretty and they had bunny tails and they had fluff in their rear ends and they would not hatch. So I kept working on feather quality and egg production to breed out the fluffy ness and in five years I had egg laying machines, tight feathered typey Plymouth Rocks and I breed the Cochin genes right out of them. Chicks hatched like pop corn and once and a while I would get a broody hen when the weather go hot down here in April or may. I have studied many years of Rhode Island Red Journals and Plymouth Rock Monthlies from 1912 to 1944 when they stopped printtting them. I have read lots of newsletters and journals for both dual purpose breeds and no one ever has wanted a broody strain of Rocks or Reds.
Why you are going backwards on the real traits of the Rock or a Red. If that's what you want for your goals go for it. But there are other chickens you can have to raise your baby chicks. I have Silkies and Buff Brahma bantams and large fowl Salmon Favolieors would work good to but to make a Rock or Red a Heritage type fowl broodiness will take away the traits you are trying to put breeding pressure on.
Now would I go out and buy four strains of chicks from four different breeders and cross them all up? no
I would go to a guy who all ready did it with three strains in North Carolina and get ten chicks from him.
Then I would raise me two great males three good females from the ten chicks and strain a line breeding program to my fancy or my mind's eye. His name is Jamey Duckworth. How do I know him.??He was the first person or Club Member I helped get going when I became the Secretary of the Plymouth Rock Fanciers Club of America. He uses the old fashion method called the Hogan method of culling.
It works very well for him and he has a fine strain of dual purpose Barred Plymouth Rocks and they will adapt very well to your climate. You don't want to get some from Calif and some from Wisconsin and some from Maine you want birds that have all ready adapted to your region that you live in. His would be perfect. Maybe I can save you five to ten years of work and $10,000 in feed prices on your hunt for a good line. Yes you can eat the culls but you also want to see progress in the goals that you want. If you don't go about it correctly with barred rocks you will be like hundreds who have tried before you. You can count the good breeders on one hand every decade for the past 50 years. Not a easy breed or color pattern to tackle that's why they are hard to locate good ones. I mean good ones. Not the so so 91 to 92 point barred that have black and white feathers. The ones at the feed store that I see are breed for one purpose and that is egg production and that is fine. I bet there are 10,000 of them alive right now in the USA but the old fashion Barred Rocks pictures above maybe 500 to 800 this time of the year. We have been pushing them hard for the past three years and more folks have them than ever.
Hope this helps you. Please get some and try your hand at them and if interested I can locate Jamie for you.