Preaching to the choir... PICS

[dichotomymom]

I hate to add to the heat but a tractor on grass is not the same as a commercial battery setting. Mine are free range when I am home but I'm not going to sit here and suggest I'm more humane than someone who uses a tractor. Mine are and have been subject to predators when they range and when in a tractor they are much less prone to being eaten.

 

[Le Canard de Barbarie]

Quote:
Battery cages are cages which have been designed to maximize the efficiency of chicken egg production. Then some genius figured they could apply the same high density priciples by making the cage a little larger, putting it in their backyard without the benefit of a proper barn, and raising meat birds in it.

Some of these battery cages, I mean chicken tractors, have a density of two square feet per bird or less. Why can't they have five square feet? Why are they packed to the gills with birds? I was told it wasn't efficient enough. Instead these poor birds get crammed into a small cage for their whole life in the name of efficient production, which translates into lowest cost per bird. Some people like to pat themselves on the back and refer to this as self sufficiency.

So why can't people practice the ideal way of raising meat birds? In many cases the people don't have the land to properly free range their animals, and instead of loosely packing their chicken tractor with 10 birds, they pack it with as many as they can put into while still allowing the birds access to their feeders.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Wow.... good topic. Good points, but come on seriously?

There are good points about a tractor being like a battery cage, I do see your point. But a lot of other points I'm a bit leery of... this is just one...

What I'm saying is that a chicken tractor reminds me of a big, moveable battery cage. At least in a factory farm a chicken could walk 100 feet in a straight line if it wanted to.

20,000 chickens wouldn't be considered a barrier? What exactly would allow a chicken in this photo to walk a straight line from one end of the barn to the other?

It's physically impossible for one single chicken to walk to one end of the barn to the other. Since there are feeders and waters every 10 feet or so... there is no reason for them to wander that far any ways.

You could probably make the argument that tractors are worse then "yarding" chickens. It's a lot more arguable, and for one ...if you would make this argument you would be comparing apples to apples... instead of apples to oranges. As chickens that are raised outdoors get great ventilation, deal with the weather, get fresh grass, sunshine, plenty of bugs, ect.

But when you deal with commercial vs tractors, it's not even close. Stocking densities you could argue.... not very much of anything else. They aren't even comparable in my opinion, and it looks to be the majority opinion on this topic.

But just like your free range set up you control the stocking densities. However you may put it, your electric netting is like a big giant cage as well. You could easily fill your pen up with 4 times as much chickens/ducks if you wanted. But you don't, neither do I with my tractors. It's the same concept, just bigger. You contradict your own statements as you practice the same concept as I do, the only difference is... you use netting I use a tractor. A true free range setting would allow chickens/ducks to have access to about 5 acres of pasture 24/7. Not a 300 ft circle of netting.... (trust me... I'm with ya I use the netting for my layers).


Now to your main point.... as it is about money. For me to raise chickens to sell to the public and do it less than $3.00-$4.00 / lb I have to raise them in the tractors. Why? Well, part of the reason why the price is so high on home grown chicken is that it isn't done in any quantity. Meaning that there is very little money being made so to justify raising them... the price is $4.00 / lb. If I raise them in tractors, I control how much manure is put down on the pasture. Again, if you want any kind of quantity this is the key to your success. An overload of manure will make you have a brown pasture. Since you have to raise thousands to make a good profit and to keep prices lower so average people can afford it, tractors are the answer until another method is invented.

I could easily do it your way, and quite frankly it would be great as I would spend a fraction of the time taking care of them. Tractor farming is not an easy way to farm chickens, it's also not for the lazy farmer. To be honest, your very tuned in with nature and the natural flow of things. You move the pens based on weather, the more it rains, the less you have to move the pens. However if we are in drought conditions, I find myself moving pens 4 sometimes 5 times a day to make sure that I have pasture a month from then. Also the densities have a major role in your success. I do want you to understand that a true pasture poultry producer that does it for a living instead of feeding their family as different outlooks on the densities of the tractors. The higher the density the more you must move the pen, the less grass they get, and the less bugs they get. All of this makes for a bird that doesn't preform well and plays a disaster on your pasture. Most of the tractors you probably have seen was from people that only raise them once or twice. So the logic is who cares if the pasture burns out... "it has all summer to come back before my fall batch" Mine and many other producers are much different, it's more like your "yarding" farming. The less birds in a tractor, the more I can get from the pasture. And because this is based on quality not just quantity I must make sure that the pasture is very well maintained.

There are pros and cons about tractors no doubt... but their also is with your netting.... I happen to use both and like both. But honesty I can't justify the use of the netting for the broilers as I lose a bit of quality when I do. As you know broilers aren't as aggressive foragers, I find that they produce better when the forage is brought to them.

However please tell me what is so sad about my battery cages? I do see some of your points but you have to see some of mine too... right? There is a middle ground between commercial farming and "traditional" farming.

 

[matthewschickens]

We are going to start free ranging meat birds in the spring.
We live near a chicken processing plant to and to see the trucks drive in full of Cornish-Cross and it is very sad

Matthew

 

[Le Canard de Barbarie]

Quote:
20,000 chickens wouldn't be considered a barrier? What exactly would allow a chicken in this photo to walk a straight line from one end of the barn to the other?

Come on Jeff, your pictures were carefully selected to boost your argument. The first picture by pixie74943 of a broiler house in this thread looked pretty decent. After that I could tell the pictures were from selected sites to show these broiler houses in a negative light. Your picture of your meat birds relaxing in a chicken tractor was also done when they were still young and not as cramped. I got the two square feet per bird statistic from your website. Remember the factory farm for fois gras? That was a terrific barn. I also remember the picture of the meat birds free ranging with poultry netting that you provided one time. That was a great operation.

Just remember, when you tell customers about the cruel conditions that the birds endure in broiler houses, I tell customers about the cruel conditions that birds endure in both chicken tractors and broiler houses.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

I see your point. But the conditions in a tractor are far from cruel.... you gotta give me at least that much.

As for the photos, the commercial one is of a certified organic farm. Mine is from 3 week old broilers, I've to change the site... as the square footage is a lot more now as we reduced the amount of birds we put in each pen.

They may be not as loose as free range, but not near as tight as commercial.

This pic here, is a great set up... but I have found that the nutrition is limited. They don't get near as many bugs, seeds, or grasses when raised like this. Higher feed bills with a chicken that has far less Omega 3 fatty acids, vitamins, and beta carotene.... along with others. There is a con either way you do it. For me, my personal well being comes first. If I can raise a healthier chicken in a tractor over one that is less healthy from a stripped pasture, I will. Because when it comes down to it, I'm eating those birds too. Also, the birds are more tender when they are in a pen. They get plenty of exercise, but not too much to make them tough. The average consumer does not want a chewy chicken. The bugs, grass, and exercise they get are plenty to make the flavor superb. Also in a tractor, they are protected from predators, even from the ones that fly. However in this kind of set up, your at the mercy of a dog.... if it falls asleep your chances of a hawk swooping in are pretty great. Trust me I know... I have the same kind of dog you do... with the same fence. When it gets hot, they seem to lay in the shade ignoring most of what goes on around them.

It is an ongoing battle for producers to fine the humanist way to raise animals, however the bottom line is not the about the environment, people, or the animal (that's a big part of it) it's about the money. So the more humane it is, the more expensive it is to get it. Sometimes you have to meet in the middle until people are ready for the switch of paying more for their food... than their entertainment. Until then, people are going to spend more money on things that make them happy than what makes them healthy. There are doctors for that. Hopefully with time consumers will educate themselves and more and more people will buy pastured poultry from tractors and from free range set ups and less and less from commercial farms.

Here is a pic from low stocked tractors... keep in mind these are older. They are extremely clean, very healthy, and the biggest is look at the ground... It's clean... Even in a free range set up, the grass isn't that clean. And also keep in mind, it takes less than 5 minutes to move them to the next clean spot when it gets dirty.

Both ways of raising pastured poultry are very efficient, and honestly most poultry producers that raise birds in tractors do it because they believe it's the humane way to do it. I really truly believe that my pastured broilers in their pens are happy, healthy broilers. I sit and watch them sometimes laying in the sun, while others are chasing after bugs and slurping down grass blades like spaghetti... the last thing that goes through my mind is how cruel that this is...

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Also too, I forgot to mention. If could go lower in my stocking densities to improve grass/bug intake.... I would. But they only consume so much, if you put only 10 chickens in a pen... you would have grass left over. I guess the only plus side of this, would be that you don't have to move the pen as much.... However come harvesting time, your not going to make much on 10 chickens. If I were doing them for my personal use... than yes, I would only put about 20 chickens in a tractor because of the fact I would have less time invested in moving the pens.

 

[Buster52]

Quote:
I'm curious, Canard. What happens when a bird touches that electrified netting of yours?

I've actually thought about a netting system before this thread and plan to get some, but not sure where it will be used. I do know my ducks, turkeys, and layers live a better life than your ducks, though, as they have total free access to 8 acres, one acre of which is a pond. I guess I treat my ducks more humanely than you do yours, eh? At least, by your logic I am.

But seriously, I'm trying to work out a plan for my Dark Cornish that included netting and a tractor . Right now I cram in 25 birds per tractor. My idea is to keep them in a brooder for a few weeks, then put them in a tractor with a door in it (I have never killed a bird with my tractor, although it could be said some have gotten their legs stuck under an end when moving and thus "hurt", but were not at all damaged by it) and when they reach an age where they won't slip through the netting, open of up the door to the tractor and surround it with the netting. The birds would seek shelter in the tractor during bad weather and at night and to get their feed and water, and I would still move it around the temporary pen daily until it was time to move the pen to new pasture.

I am curious, though, what do you do with your ducklings until they are big enough that they don't fit through the netting? Or is that even an issue?

Lastly, if you have never raised meat birds, I'm not sure how valid your opinions are on the issue of their rearing. My ducks can do anywhere they want, but they never get more than twenty feet or so from the pond, and then only because I force them to by placing their feed so far from the bank. Raising ducks is absolutely nothing like raising chickens or turkeys. My free range turkeys use half the property for their domain, chickens tend to hug the area around the chicken house, only occasionally ranging farther than 50 to 75 feet. Ducks stck pretty much to the pond and its shore.

 

[Le Canard de Barbarie]

Good to hear you are lowering your stocking densities.

While these birds have the opportunity to sun themselves, they also have the opportunity to get wet and chilled, or so hot they they suffer heat exhaustion. I bet it can get hot under that low lying tarp. Not much choice when you are caged up. A completely enclosed environment, on the other hand, offers the benefit of relatively controlled environment that is free from predators. Here's where I see pro's and con's of both high density systems.

Interesting observations about having to keep a bird's activity level down to produce a more tender meat aimed at customer satisfaction. That is also the belief and practice of a broiler operation. When I was a kid in 4-H we had our market lambs off pasture and penned up for the same reasons.

 

[Le Canard de Barbarie]

Quote:
I was raising chickens way before you even started reading about them.