Predator Prevention: Dog Training

[GuppyTJ]

At some point in the near future I will be doing some dog training to prevent my dogs from bothering the chickens (along with working on dog training in general). I was thinking though: with all the horror stories of loose dogs killing chickens and paying the ultimate price - what are some training behaviors that could help prevent these sorts of losses (on both sides)? I'm hoping some experience from those who have suffered dog-predator losses can help me prevent my own from ever being those predators.

A sturdy fence is the first line of safety for all parties, but I really would like some additional security in case that fails. Here's my list of behaviors I want to work on, could all of you wonderful folks help me out with ideas/opinions? I just feel like I'm missing something important because the list is so short beyond the assumed basic obedience skills (stay/down/etc).

• Teaching them to stay on the property even if the gate is open (and hoping it translates to any failed fencing chances to escape).
• Teaching them to leave chickens alone (but this won't necessarily save them from harrassing someone's pigs/goats/cows/etc if they haven't been trained for those animals). They have some herding instinct so I do worry about them 'worrying' livestock if they should escape. I'll have plenty of opportunity to work with them reguarding chickens since I'll have some of my own, but not most other livestock.
• Teaching them to run to my front porch when someone yells "Get out of here!" "Go home!" (so potentially someone can send them packing before they do any harm).

These two aren't escape artists, but I'd like a bit more peace of mind than knowing they just haven't dug a hole under a fence yet. I guess they really are my furbabies.

If this isn't quite the right place to ask, could someone point me in the right direction?

LBKS,

I read the other posts and your replies so I thought I'd try to address your 3 topics directly as I don't think anyone has done this yet.

Bullet Point 1: Teaching your dogs to stay on your property can be accomplished by positive re-enforcement when they stay on your side of the perimeter and negative re-enforcement when they cross over to where you don't want them. I don't know how big your property is so this can be either easy or a challenge to teach them where you want them to stay. So, here are a few different examples and stories to help you figure out how to do this.

I used to live in the suburbs (several years ago) and I had a dog I wanted to stay in my yard but I was too cheap to put in an electric underground fence. This dog was easy to train (she was a terrier mutt) so I taught her myself. I took her to the edge of the grass just by the street. I threw a piece of cheese on the ground in the grass (where she was supposed to be) and while she ate it, told her "good dog". I did this several times, walking her along the edge and giving her tiny bits of cheese. Then, I walked into the street and she followed me. I told her bad dog and gently pushed her back into the grass. When she was back on the grass, I gave her a piece of cheese. This went on for a while. She eventually seemed to understand she was not allowed in the street. I THEN threw a piece of cheese in the street and she went for it. I told her bad dog and put her back in the grass. I did it again, cheese in the road. She did NOT go for the cheese so I picked up the cheese from the street and gave it to her as she sat in the grass. Several sessions of this and she got it. The dog was trained to stay safely in the grass and out of the street.

I share this training method because it demonstrates the essence of dog training. First, it's incremental. Teach the dog in steps what you want the dog to learn and understand. Use both positive and negative re-enforcement. Progress the training as the dog progresses with the learning. Be creative. If your dog likes cheese, use cheese.

Flash forward to now. I live on 180 acres surrounded by 3,000 acres of Daniel Boone National Forest in southern Kentucky. I live in the country way in the back of a hollow where there is no traffic, no neighbors within a mile of us and no fences. I have 2 different dogs now, as that one I trained to stay out of the street died of old age. My 2 current dogs are a beagle mutt and a shephard mutt (shelter saves). So, this is much different than the suburbs and these dogs are different dogs, different breed, different personalities. My 2 dogs run free and so basically, the training is to teach the dog to stay with you when you're outside and generally on the property when they're outside by themselves. So, we taught the dogs to stay out of the road that is maybe 300 feet from the house (even tho there's maybe 2 cars on it a day) by basically calling them back from the road when they try to cross. They're well trained dogs already so this is really just a matter of telling them to stay out of the road and they do. When we go hiking (which is often), we've trained the dogs to stay with us. The beagle was an especially difficult challenge because she LOVES to go off barking up in the mountains and all over the woods. For her, we used one of those hunting dog shock collars. We didn't want to use it but when she's off leash and on the scent of a rabbit, she's got that beagle focus and truly is in the zone and our yelling "Darby, Come" doesn't even penetrate her beagle brain. Believe me, we tried. With the collar, we call her twice to come, if she doesn't start coming, we give her a SLIGHT zap. This breaks her concentration and she comes to us because we're the safe place. She truly doesn't know we're the one zapping her. She seems to think it's like a bee stinging her because it's the same reaction exactly that she has when she gets stung by a bee. When she gets stung, she stops what she's doing and runs to us for safety and comfort. After a bit of training with the collar, she doesn't need the zap collar anymore. She has learned to come when she's called even when she's in that prey pursuit zone. I share this beagle zap collar story because this demonstrates that every dog and every situation is different. What works for one dog doesn't always work with a different dog.

In general, my dogs stay with me when I go about my farm chores. When I go to the barn to tend to the chickens, they come with me. I just had them come with me every time I went and now, they just see me heading for the barn and they tag along. They know when I go to the barn, they come to the barn. I want them to come up there because having them up at the barn, where the chickens are, is a great predator deterrent.

So, how do you train YOUR dogs to stay on our property? It's probably some combination of the above techniques and some creativity on your part to tailor your training to your property and your dog's personalities. Perhaps these stories and examples will give you ideas.

I'll offer ideas on the next 2 bullets in a separate post if I have time later but thought I'd start with this.

Hope this helps,
Guppy

 

[GuppyTJ]

LBKS,

For your second bullet point question, you asked how to train dogs to not bother chickens. I would take this a step further and suggest that they not only don't bother them but in fact, help you protect them from predators (other dogs, coyotes, raccoons, hawks, etc.).

Here's part of a response I wrote for a different thread that explains how I worked with my dogs to train them to not hurt my chickens and help me protect them. This might again, help you figure out what to try to train your dogs. All dogs are different so have a read but plan on tailoring your training to your dog's personalities and level of prey drive.

I got to test my dog training skills when I trained my 2 dogs to not hurt my chickens. One is a beagle mutt and the other is a blind Shepard mutt. The Shepard is a killer and has strong predator instincts, it's in his nature to kill little rodents, rabbits, wild turkeys. The Shepard went blind about 3 months (degenerative disease of the rods and cones) before we got the chicks so I expected he would be the bigger challenge to train of the 2 dogs.

The day I brought the chicks home in a box from the farmer's market, I introduced the dogs to them. I used the "these are my chicks, not your chicks" phrase in a stern but not mean voice from the very first moment and then repeatedly for the next several months. I brooded the chicks in the house, which was a very good thing because the dogs had to literally live with them, listening to their chirps and smelling them constantly. When I'd clean the brooder, I'd let the dogs sniff the chicks and I'd repeat the "these are my chicks, not your chicks. Over and over this went on for weeks. My idea was to get them used to the chicks as part of every day living and our household. Whenever either dog would show any kind of excitement like even a little whine, I'd scold them, with "bad dog, these are my chicks, not your chicks." The same if they stared at the brooder or tried to lay near it.

Finally, about 6 weeks later, it was time for the chicks to go out into the coop. I locked the chicks in the coop for 1 week so they would imprint on the coop as home. During this time, the dogs were not allowed to stare in through the hardware cloth at the chicks. They weren't allowed to stalk around outside the coop or any of that. Same phrasing, same correction. When they would lay someplace away from the coop, I'd give them treats.

Then, it was time for the chicks to free range (I have no fence, no run, just a secure coop at night). This was going to be the big challenge for the dogs. I tied them up nearby but within sight of where the chicks would free range. The beagle mutt immediately showed no interest in the chicks. She fell asleep, would stare off at something else. She seemed a little afraid of the chicks at first. Probably, all that "these are my chicks..." made her realize they were off limits to her. The beagle mutt just got it immediately. The chickens were just part of the landscape to her. One dog trained the easy way. One dog to go.

The blind Shepard mutt, however, was captivated by the chicks. It was hard for him and for me because he'd "stare" at them and it was difficult to tell at times if he was trying to figure out where they were by pointing his nose and ears towards them or stalking them. He's a killer, as I mentioned earlier, so I watched his every move. For weeks and weeks every single day, I worked with him but it wasn't working. He was no less obsessed with them. I eventually grew tired of correcting him and rewarding him for ignoring the chickens, then 2 seconds later, he was back to stalking them. I tried teaching him to lay down when ever he was in the vicinity of the chicks or they came near him. I even tried clicker training him with no correction, just positive re-enforcement. He just wasn't getting it.

Finally, two things happened. The first is I admit, I resorted to a shock collar. I'd say nothing to him and simply give him a small, mild correction when he'd approach the chickens or stalk them or stare in their direction. He got the message much faster than all the prior positive re-enforcement and negative voice correction I'd given him. Within days, he understood and was showing marked improvement. The second thing that happened is the chickens grew out of that peeping stage and for some reason, that mattered to this dog. He just sort of lost most of his interest once they started clucking instead of peeping. In fact, later, I brought in an additional 5 younger pullets that were still in the peeping stage and the blind Shepard was right back to some prior bad behaviors. Being blind, sound and smell are very important to him. The new chicks smelled different (even I could smell that they smelled different than the others, not bad, just different) and they peeped vs. clucked. Once these new chicks started clucking, again, the blind Shepard sort of lost interest.

Finally, when the chickens were about 16 weeks old, I was to the point where my 2 dogs could both be trusted around my 15 free ranging chickens without any type of correction. This process took a full 4 months of effort on my part and on the part of the dogs to learn to behave. I'm now to the point where I trust the Shepherd at perhaps, the 99% level. He falls asleep in the hay or in the sun as the chickens wander around him and even step on him. Recently, they have on occasion, flown up on his back and he just sort of side steps so they fall off. Once in awhile, he goes up to the barn by himself when I'm not there. I'll walk up there (it's about 1/4 mile from the house) and find him sleeping peacefully as the chickens wander about doing their thing. Or he's wandering about sniffing for something to eat that the chickens have left behind, like an old corn cob or melon rind.

I can say for sure that I did my best to teach him and I think for what he's got to work with and who he is, he's done a fantastic job. Each dog is different and an individual. What works for one dog may not work for another. If you're being consistent with whatever technique you're trying and you've given it a good amount of time and you see no improvement or progress, try something else. For some dogs, it comes easy, for others, it takes a lot of work.

Finally, one of the best things about investing in your dogs so you can trust (or nearly trust!) them with your chickens is that most dogs are pretty good at predator patrol. Both of my dogs run off nearly everything that comes near the barn. I free range on the border of 3,000 acres of Daniel Boone National Forest in Kentucky. Loads of predators live in these woods. The dogs even have different barks for different predators. I can tell if it's a coyote they're running off or a deer, for example.

In the final analysis, there is not much worse than having a dog that kills your chickens, creating a situation where you have to choose between having the dog or having chickens. Or, keeping your dog chained up or in the house away from the chickens and always worrying that one day, he'll get loose. Do what you have to do to get everyone to live in peace together. Invest in whatever method you think you can manage so that for years and years to come, you can all relax, you, the dogs and the chickens. And the dogs just by their mere presence, can help you keep your chickens safe from predators. So much irony and satisfaction in being able to turn a dog who threatens your chicken's lives into a dog that helps keep your chickens safe from other predators. So, you get harmony (vs. constant worry and drama) and you get protection from predators. What could be more ideal?

LBKS, you asked about training your dogs to not hurt or herd other livestock as well. I have never done this (will get 2 goats next spring) so I have no direct experience to share. I intend to try similar techniques when I get my goats: introduce the dogs to the goats and the goats to the dogs. Repeat the "these are my goats, not your goats..." etc, etc. I don't expect this to be as big a training challenge, however, for several reasons. The first is that the goats are bigger than the chickens and are not, in a dog's mind, really considered prey animals. The second is the goats can probably defend themselves to some degree.

The third and most important reason I don't expect training my dogs to not harm additional livestock will be that hard is that the dogs have already learned this lesson. That's what's great about a dog. Once they learn something, they can mentally relate that learning to the next similar thing you teach them. So, teaching them to not harm chickens they now understand well. Teaching them to not harm goats is just an extension of what they already understand. In their mind it'll be something like "I see, this is another creature she doesn't want us to hurt or chase. This is another creature that belongs here. This is another creature that is part of our family/pack." In fact, it's even more general than this. Just the act of learning the learning process, helps a dog learn the next thing far faster. And the next and the next. This is why you often see very well behaved dogs. Once a dog learns how to learn and how to master a task or a lesson, they become very easy to train on many additional things.

Hope this helps,
Guppy

 

[GuppyTJ]

LBKS,

Your third bullet point is about how to train your dogs to run off things you don't want around. This is the easiest thing to train of your 3 bullet points.

Dogs naturally defend their territory. What they define as "their territory" can vary but generally, wherever you and they live and wherever your stuff lives and wherever you spend your time when you're outside. And wherever you've set the boundaries for in bullet point #1. So, for me, it's from my house to the road, across our ~7 acre field and up 1/4 mile to and around our barn. It's a big area, maybe 15 acres. Then, there's the woods above the barn which they seem to think is their territory too. The point is, it can be a very wide area. How they define "their territory" is a bit of a mystery to me but in my experience, they seem to get it about right.

So, the way to train them to defend your territory is to first, see if they know to do it already. You may not need to train them. My dogs bark at anyone who comes on our land in a car, for example. They just seem to naturally do this. Watch them and see if your dogs do this. They'll hear the car, bark and then the key is THEY LOOK BACK AT YOU. They bark again, then LOOK BACK AT YOU. They know you're the boss and are literally trying to tell you "someone's here." If they do this or anything that remotely resembles it, you're golden. So, all you do is respond to their bark with "Who's here?" in a very excited voice. Odds are, they'll reply with another bark or two because you've positively re-enforced their initial bark. That's about all it takes.

The same works for predators. When a coyote comes in the area, my dogs pick up his scent long before I know he's there. I encourage them with "Go get 'em!" and off they run. It's interesting, this whole predator thing and the signs the dogs give me on what they're after. They have a different barks for a snake, (constant ruff, ruff, ruff, ruff and they stay in one place) or a coyote (a vicious bark with a lot of growling and a lot of running all around following the scent) or a rabbit (a yappy high pitched bark while running like a crazy dog) or a deer (it's a lazy bark is the best I can describe it, just telling the deer to leave). In addition, the blind Shepard mutt only chases off real predators. He doesn't bother with deer or rabbits. The beagle mutt chases everything off and she's the one with the distinct bark types. She just loves the chase. The beagle chasing off everything is fine by me as her barking up in the woods after a rabbit is sure to scare off or at least be less inviting to any fox or coyote or raccoons or whatever, in the area.

You mentioned you want your dogs to come to your porch when alerting you that someone or some animal is there. I don't understand this so maybe you might explain what you meant by this. For me, I don't really want my dogs to come to the front door barking. I want them to run after whatever it is and run it off away from my chickens. Or if it's a person, to bark so I know someone is here and then run in their direction barking if they're outside.

Finally, the hardest part of this is getting the dog to COME when you call them after they're on the trail of something. Or, to stop barking after you've told them "that's enough." Once a dog gets barking at something, their instinct is to bark until either the thing leaves or until they know it's no longer a threat. Getting your dogs to obey your COME command or your QUIET command goes back to how much basic obedience you have already trained them to have. As I mentioned earlier, when the beagle gets on the fresh scent of a rabbit, in the past, she has been very hard to break out of her trance. But in general, now both dogs come when they're called. They do not, however, I'll admit, be quiet when I've told them I'm aware of the intruder and that it's OK and that they can stop barking. Oh well... no dog and no dog trainer is perfect!

Anyway, if it's a predator they've chased off, they are helping me keep my chickens safe and I want this behavior. So, I even give the beagle a treat when she goes barking up in the woods after something and then returns to the barn afterwards. I want her to learn, "I smell something, I chase that something off, I return shortly thereafter, I get a treat." She's got it. She loves barking and chasing things. It helps me keep my chickens from getting eaten and keeps me and my family safe from intruders. She's happy and it helps me so everyone benefits.

Hope this helps,
Guppy

 

[centrarchid]

LBKS,

Your third bullet point is about how to train your dogs to run off things you don't want around. This is the easiest thing to train of your 3 bullet points.

Dogs naturally defend their territory. What they define as "their territory" can vary but generally, wherever you and they live and wherever your stuff lives and wherever you spend your time when you're outside. And wherever you've set the boundaries for in bullet point #1. So, for me, it's from my house to the road, across our ~7 acre field and up 1/4 mile to and around our barn. It's a big area, maybe 15 acres. Then, there's the woods above the barn which they seem to think is their territory too. The point is, it can be a very wide area. How they define "their territory" is a bit of a mystery to me but in my experience, they seem to get it about right.

So, the way to train them to defend your territory is to first, see if they know to do it already. You may not need to train them. My dogs bark at anyone who comes on our land in a car, for example. They just seem to naturally do this. Watch them and see if your dogs do this. They'll hear the car, bark and then the key is THEY LOOK BACK AT YOU. They bark again, then LOOK BACK AT YOU. They know you're the boss and are literally trying to tell you "someone's here." If they do this or anything that remotely resembles it, you're golden. So, all you do is respond to their bark with "Who's here?" in a very excited voice. Odds are, they'll reply with another bark or two because you've positively re-enforced their initial bark. That's about all it takes.

The same works for predators. When a coyote comes in the area, my dogs pick up his scent long before I know he's there. I encourage them with "Go get 'em!" and off they run. It's interesting, this whole predator thing and the signs the dogs give me on what they're after. They have a different barks for a snake, (constant ruff, ruff, ruff, ruff and they stay in one place) or a coyote (a vicious bark with a lot of growling and a lot of running all around following the scent) or a rabbit (a yappy high pitched bark while running like a crazy dog) or a deer (it's a lazy bark is the best I can describe it, just telling the deer to leave). In addition, the blind Shepard mutt only chases off real predators. He doesn't bother with deer or rabbits. The beagle mutt chases everything off and she's the one with the distinct bark types. She just loves the chase. The beagle chasing off everything is fine by me as her barking up in the woods after a rabbit is sure to scare off or at least be less inviting to any fox or coyote or raccoons or whatever, in the area.

You mentioned you want your dogs to come to your porch when alerting you that someone or some animal is there. I don't understand this so maybe you might explain what you meant by this. For me, I don't really want my dogs to come to the front door barking. I want them to run after whatever it is and run it off away from my chickens. Or if it's a person, to bark so I know someone is here and then run in their direction barking if they're outside.

Finally, the hardest part of this is getting the dog to COME when you call them after they're on the trail of something. Or, to stop barking after you've told them "that's enough." Once a dog gets barking at something, their instinct is to bark until either the thing leaves or until they know it's no longer a threat. Getting your dogs to obey your COME command or your QUIET command goes back to how much basic obedience you have already trained them to have. As I mentioned earlier, when the beagle gets on the fresh scent of a rabbit, in the past, she has been very hard to break out of her trance. But in general, now both dogs come when they're called. They do not, however, I'll admit, be quiet when I've told them I'm aware of the intruder and that it's OK and that they can stop barking. Oh well... no dog and no dog trainer is perfect!

Anyway, if it's a predator they've chased off, they are helping me keep my chickens safe and I want this behavior. So, I even give the beagle a treat when she goes barking up in the woods after something and then returns to the barn afterwards. I want her to learn, "I smell something, I chase that something off, I return shortly thereafter, I get a treat." She's got it. She loves barking and chasing things. It helps me keep my chickens from getting eaten and keeps me and my family safe from intruders. She's happy and it helps me so everyone benefits.

Hope this helps,
Guppy

I think what is desired is for dog to leave property of another and to run home if told to "get".

 

[GuppyTJ]

I think what is desired is for dog to leave property of another and to run home if told to "get".

Aha, Cenrarchid, yup, re-read the question and you're right. Darn, I wrote all that stuff answering a question that was the wrong question! Bummer.

OK, well, now that I'm clear on the question, the answer is teach your dog to stay on your own property and then other home owners won't have to yell at them to go home! You can't really teach your dog to run when someone else yells at it, really. It just makes more sense to teach the dog to behave properly in the first place vs. dealing with the poor behavior after the fact Not to mention creating ill will with your neighbors. So, this goes back to all the stuff I wrote to answer bullet point #1.

Said another way, if my dog DID go over to the neighbor's property, I'd work on training him to stay home. Let's say I did all the stuff I wrote in bullet point #1. Then, my dog misbehaved and kept wandering over to the neighbor's. I'd recognize that my dog was not trained and not yet to be trusted to stay on my property. So, I'd go back to training him as I wrote in bullet point #1, choosing whatever I thought would work for that particular dog in that situation. Or, if none of what I'd tried was working, I'd try to come up with something new to try.

It's work and takes patience and time and can involve a bit of creativity. But in my opinion, a good, well behaved dog is a blessing and a poorly trained dog is more of a burden, a frustration, a danger to your farm animals and the farm animals of your neighbors. This is just my opinion and I'm sure others may not agree. But because I believe this, I'll invest a whole lot of energy and thought up front to just teach my dog to simply be a good dog and this investment then pays out 100 fold in the many years that follow in the form of a great dog who is a great companion and a net positive helper on the farm.

Guppy