probiotics for meat birds

[galanie]

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Ok I see now so it's for the calcium supplement not for anything related to the gut or digestion is that correct. Now I can see that. I feed my egg shells back as a extra source of calcium, because every now and then when I see weak eggs or new layers, or getting ready for hatching season, or post molt, they need the extra calcium. And so is it used because it's easy to give or for those who have issues with feeding shells back or a problem finding crushed Oyster shells ??

Well that and the fact that it's there and would otherwise be tossed. Just like EggsforIHOP, except I don't have a goat or anything. Kinda wish I did, even looked at getting a pygmy goat for milk but I'm convinced it would just be another pain lol. Like the quail ended up being, only worse. I think not all of us have the same reasons for giving it. Some do give it to them for the probiotics. I won't argue that you can raise healthy birds just fine w/out this stuff, I know for a fact you can. I just think why not give them every advantage you can. And if it ends up not being all that beneficial, well you've certainly done nothing to hurt them.

 

[EggsForIHOP]

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Exactly! Around here, it's FREE - a left over - just like letting them free range through the garden to clean it up, or tossing harmless scraps like cantaloupe innards to them. It may not help a lot, but it doesn't hurt, and I am funny about NOT eating things close to expiring because they don't taste the same - not quite bad, but not quite delicious. The critters don't ever mind if it's not super fresh.

I clearly remember an old lady - Miss Harold - who lived to be 104 while I was working at a nursing home years ago - she ALWAYS insisted after a meal that we took the "slop to the barn for the critters"...we had no barn at the nursing home...she was just in the end stages of dimentia...but when I asked her family about it, yes, she lived on a farm growing up and yes, they had a few of everything out there - chickens, hogs, a cow, and according to her son, they didn't have a fridge "in those days" so the rare excess became critter feed otherwise it just went bad...people have been feeding extra "people food" to things like hogs and chickens for a long time. She wasn't the only one that told stories about growing up on a farm - but she was the oldest one. Seems scraps were an easy way to feed things even back then. Probably not the best...but lacking a garbage disposal, not a bad way of doing things

Yogurt has actually been around a VERY long time - just not so much in the US and not all sweetened up with tons of sugar and fruit like the stuff we call yogurt now. Other cultures have had it for ages, they just ate it sour and plain - even I can't eat PLAIN yogurt, though I often cook with it. It was a good way of storing milk - by fermenting it, they were able to keep it longer and still have protein and calcium in their diet.

For some of us, it's just a free, homemade way of supplementing - maybe not right for everyone, because running out to buy a gallon of milk to make yogurt with can get pricey fast...but as a hobby, it's fun to be able to provide stuff I have at the house already for the critters - too many squash from the garden that I don't can or freeze in time, excess dairy products...it's not their "every day" but it is an okay treat. And people have been doing it for ages - they just couldn't blog about it

I still go visit that nursing home, and while I have lost a lot of my older friends, I've made some new ones, and they love to talk about the farm the grew up on or visited as a child and the differences between now and then (being north of Houston in an area that used to be very rural, they all remember a time before freeways and Walmarts) - but kitchen scraps seem to be an age old commonality amongst them. Yogurt near ready to expire is a scrap to me and free for the critters. It just happens to have other added benefits that people have known about for ages, but never blogged about or made commercials about. They didn't have those tools to spread the word with, but now we do. Some people over think it - I know I tend to - but I don't have kids, so for me, I have to fret and worry over something and it is my critters. If making my own yogurt provides me something to do, that is good for them, then why not? Sure, it's easier to go buy a bottle of powdered probios - but why when I can make the same thing?

I know...I write a lot...sorry...

it's what I'm good at - math is where I falter, but writing...can do it for days!

 

[EggsForIHOP]

Galanie - you CERTAINLY have to LOVE the goats...they can be a total pain! If the fencing isn't right, they escape...they holler at you when they know it's meal time...and once you start milking, you HAVE to stick with that schedule, or it gets all screwed up! But I have some beautiful Nigerian dwarf goats that give about 2 quarts a day at peak....due for Christmas babies...if you ever want one....IF we get does...not very big and not very loud....and EXTRA cute when they are little! Just let me know...and some "mini-nubians" due late January/early February....just saying...goat math works like chicken math....

they can be addictive! (and we are a CAE free herd here with papers....just saying....think on it...everyone needs a couple goats!)

 

[galanie]

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Two quarts a day.. wow.. I make soap too... LOL you're tempting me!! But I'd only want the one, for milk. Don't you have to breed them every year to keep being able to milk them?

 

[EggsForIHOP]

Well...not always...I'll pm you...

 

[Tracydr]

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Actually, cultured milk, in the form of kefir and yogurt is ancient. Thousands of years old.I learned to make homemade yogurt when i was in grade school from my Finnish grandmother. It was a staple in her house, in Finland and Northern MN.
Kefir is and ancient cultured milk from western Asia, yogurt from ancient Scandinavia. Kefir has far more probiotics than yogurt so is probably more beneficial, not to mention much easier to make once you procure the kefir grains from someone. ( don't use the store-bought culture, it's not as good and doesn't last)
There are some studies showing that milk products, in the form of plain milk, yogurt and kefir seem to help control or cure coccidiosis, most likely by changing the gut pH and, in the case of cultured milk, by adding bacterias. I actually have some poultry meat bird diets saved in PDF format somewhere that are milk based. Apparently, milk is commonly used as an organic treatment for coccidiosis.

 

[gallopingfrog]

Interesting! I am really curious now that Erica brought up using kefir....I know to expose chickens to coccidia from day 1 (isn't there a vaccine you can give day-olds as a coccidiostat???). But I am really wanting to stay as far away from antibiotics as possible (if they get sick, I'd probably medicate, then use them as strictly layers, instead of meat). So if I gave the vaccine, fed them something like kefir, would it help control coccidia???? I know most everyone is, like, "We don't know why it works, but it does", but would it make a good theory to try at the least?

 

[Erica]

Hi gallopingfrog, if you look on my blog you'll see everything I do to try to control cocci without medications. There are no guarantees, but basically the procedure involves exposing birds from day one to small amounts of adult healthy hen droppings sprinkled over the litter, and giving them a little soured milk early on as well (increasing the soured milk as they grow; I use mine to make a mash).

However you then need to pay attention to increasing the cocci exposure. Firstly at 3 weeks of age I move mine out of the chick-brooder into an intermediate area, not a day earlier, not a day later. This is the age when cocci really starts to be shed in high numbers in the droppings, so you don't want to 'seed' the baby chick brooder with high numbers of oocysts (which are hard to remove even if you change litter). The intermediate cage (in my case an aviary) is concrete floored and I've never had a sick bird in it. They stay here 2 weeks or so, then go into the tractor (depending on weather) at 5 weeks of age.

I never sanitise my brooder, I just sweep it out between batches. I only remove litter/droppings if they're damp or there's a smell, and I do remove them from the nest area (the only part of my brooder that's heated -- heating an entire brooding area including the run is a recipe for cocci overgrowth, in my opinion). Keep water area in particular cool.

After the brooder they go into the aviary (the intermediate zone) or even straight out onto ground in the tractor. The tractor here doesn't go on totally clean ground; I've raised chicks on that ground before, and my meat chicks did develop coccidiosis one time (they weren't being given kefir at the time). I've since had 3 week olds out on that ground in the same tractor with absolutely no cocci, so I feel there are a couple of things going on here: number one is the kefir; number two could be that I'm no longer raising meat birds (which have lower immunity in general and higher volumes of droppings than other birds). Having said that, some of the birds currently in the tractor are meat hybrid x leghorn.

Right now I've got 5-6 week old chicks which were brooded in the brooder 3 wks, no litter change, then straight out into tractor (i.e. no intermediate concrete floored cage) and I've only moved the tractor 3 x in the last 3 weeks, because the ground underneath still has grass on it... There are 26 birds in this tractor and none have shown the slightest setback.

But can you see how many variables there are? And add weather on top of that... A heavy drenching and warmish soil can cause an outbreak even if everything else is being done properly.

So if I can put it more simply: variables seem to be:
1. Number and type of birds (meat birds more susceptible, so I should have moved the tractor daily for the first 2 weeks, then every 2 days, and so forth);
2. Necessity to move out of baby brooder at 3 wks of age so next batch of chicks aren't heavily seeded;
3. Adult hen droppings (small amount) giving day one exposure;
4. Soured milk;
5. Moving tractor more frequently for meat birds;
6. Weather.

It's a lot to think about, but I say all this because I'd hate to simply say 'yes kefir can stop cocci' without giving a fuller picture of everything I do to control it. Yes I do think kefir is a main player... But I'd hate to tell someone they can rely on it if it's only part of the story.

Lastly, and sorry for this long scattered post (children preparing for school, bus coming), the chicks raised under a broody were kept in the intermediate house (aviary) for 4 weeks and have just been moved onto ground. Yes, these did have kefir, but they didn't have any other precaution aside from contact with the mother. No cocci among them, needless to say.

regards
Erica

 

[gallopingfrog]

Wow. You know, every step you take makes a ton of sense. I'm currently in a microbiology class and we just talked about the fact that we build immunity by being exposed to something, our body fights it off and then when we run into it again, we automatically know how to combat it (most people know that's how it works). So, technically speaking, what you're doing is introducing a certain protozoa to the birds so that they can learn to fight it on their own. It's actually super smart.

What would you do if you were in my situation - I've never had any poultry before. I don't know where I would get adult hen droppings....The only thing I can think to do is get on Craigslist or something for chicken manure....but that scares me to think someone's birds might have some other God-awful disease, you know? I will be getting mine shortly - the last hatch of the year. I don't know where I could get kefir either.

Any ideas???

 

[galanie]

Can't help you with the hen droppings, but you can get kefir starter online at The Kefir Lady or Culturesforhealth.com. I was lucky enough to find someone locally that was generous enough to give me some kefir grains. Pretty much all you have to do is put grains in a container of milk and let it sit on the countertop till it's made, strain out the grains, and do it again.