I agree with surplus of energy but also view the Merck Manual to see that high energy diets are a problem and diet control is needed in the case of fatty liver disease. Good exercise I totally agree with as well.
Protein? Gah!
- Thread starter Keeperofmunchkins
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I agree with surplus of energy but also view the Merck Manual to see that high energy diets are a problem and diet control is needed in the case of fatty liver disease. Good exercise I totally agree with as well.
I was just looking at your original post again... You are correct in that most "layer" feed will be about 16%. You will not likely find a commercially available "layer" feed at a higher percentage than that. If you want to feed a higher percentage of protein you would need to purchase a "grower" or "all flock" feed or often there are things sold as "feather fixer" for birds in molt and supplement calcium via oyster shell on the side (which is a good idea even if feeding layer feed as every chicken's metabolism is a bit different and some need a little extra calcium).
I'm going to briefly step up on my soap box and anyone can feel free to 
me for it...
As @centrarchid mentioned, the protein levels recommended in the industry are the minimums to avoid serious nutritional deficit issues.
The goals of the industry are to maximize egg and meat production at a minimum cost. Of course they don't want their chicks dying off before they can start cranking out those eggs! But once past that critical growth stage they aren't going to keep up the protein percentage.
I mix my own feed. My protein sources are my most expensive ingredients by a long shot. I'll not cheap out and deprive them of what they need to thrive, not just survive.
Okay. I'll step down now.
me for it...As @centrarchid mentioned, the protein levels recommended in the industry are the minimums to avoid serious nutritional deficit issues.
The goals of the industry are to maximize egg and meat production at a minimum cost. Of course they don't want their chicks dying off before they can start cranking out those eggs! But once past that critical growth stage they aren't going to keep up the protein percentage.
I mix my own feed. My protein sources are my most expensive ingredients by a long shot. I'll not cheap out and deprive them of what they need to thrive, not just survive.
Okay. I'll step down now.
If I were an alien and looking to keep a few humans as pets one of the things I would want to know is how to feed them and keep them healthy.
I hope I would notice fairly quickly that humans are omnivorous.
Taking this into consideration I would want to feed them some meat and fish. I should also notice that a balanced diet seems to give good results; not too much fat, not too much salt and probably no added sugar. Need some greens and fruit as well.
I should also notice that humans that exercise tend to be healthier so I would want to encourage this.
Chickens are omnivorous but for some strange reason we seem to think they should all be Vegans.
I hope I would notice fairly quickly that humans are omnivorous.
Taking this into consideration I would want to feed them some meat and fish. I should also notice that a balanced diet seems to give good results; not too much fat, not too much salt and probably no added sugar. Need some greens and fruit as well.
I should also notice that humans that exercise tend to be healthier so I would want to encourage this.
Chickens are omnivorous but for some strange reason we seem to think they should all be Vegans.
Spot on, the vast majority of studies are about cost/performance. My layers free range and get a 16% ration and do fine, but when I integrate young pullets with the established layers, I'll feed an 18% until the pullets reach point of lay. My cockerels do get layer except when I'm preparing them to breed, but they don't live long enough to develop the problems and their livers have been fabulous. You basically are best if you read a lot, and decide what is most comfortable for you. If I kept boys more than three years, I wouldn't feed them layer.
If I were an alien and looking to keep a few humans as pets one of the things I would want to know is how to feed them and keep them healthy.
I hope I would notice fairly quickly that humans are omnivorous.
Taking this into consideration I would want to feed them some meat and fish. I should also notice that a balanced diet seems to give good results; not too much fat, not too much salt and probably no added sugar. Need some greens and fruit as well.
I should also notice that humans that exercise tend to be healthier so I would want to encourage this.
Chickens are omnivorous but for some strange reason we seem to think they should all be Vegans.
You crack me up, Shad!
"FLHS is not caused by high protein and fat. It is caused by an energy surplus."
Agreed. More often Fatty Liver Haemorrhagic Syndrome is caused by a diet too high in carbs (which usually means lower in protein since those are the main constituents of chicken feed) which will be turned into fat if it is not burned off via exercise. This is why larger more sedentary breeds like Orpingtons and Sussex are at higher risk of it than flighty breeds that burn off calories more easily. People who feed too much scratch to birds that are penned put them at risk of this because the scratch has a higher carb content and lower protein than formulated feed and the chickens will eat the scratch in preference to their proper feed, so their daily protein intake decreases and carbs increase and they start to get fat. The fat deposits around the abdomen and organs and vent but molecules of fat also impregnate the liver making it's structure week and prone to haemorrhaging.
Protein is slower to digest and it therefore fills them up. Chicken feed at 16% protein is formulated so that they will only eat as much as they need without becoming fat. Many people who feed 18-20% protein do so to offset the small amount of treats like scratch that they give. My birds get by absolutely fine on 16% protein although I do make a mash or ferment with a mixture of layer pellets and 18% chick crumbs and give them that as a little treat as well as a small amount of scratch occasionally. I would say that overall they probably average 16% protein.
Sourcing higher protein unmedicated feed like an all flock/flock raiser here in the UK is not easy and becomes significantly more expensive.... at least in my area. Even unmedicated 16% grower can be significantly more expensive than 16% layer feed probably because there is less demand for it and you have to buy a branded product to get it.
You have to remember that eggs are quite high in protein and therefore require protein input to produce them. Having said that, chickens are bred to be productive rather than fed to be productive. Feeding them a lower protein feed is more likely to affect their health before it affects their egg production particularly if they are penned rather than free range. It is not as clear cut as this but these are the issues and the balance of their diet is pretty important, so staying somewhere between 15 and 20% protein in their daily intake is about right... heavier breeds will do better on a slightly higher % protein than smaller more active breeds because they burn less calories.
Agreed. More often Fatty Liver Haemorrhagic Syndrome is caused by a diet too high in carbs (which usually means lower in protein since those are the main constituents of chicken feed) which will be turned into fat if it is not burned off via exercise. This is why larger more sedentary breeds like Orpingtons and Sussex are at higher risk of it than flighty breeds that burn off calories more easily. People who feed too much scratch to birds that are penned put them at risk of this because the scratch has a higher carb content and lower protein than formulated feed and the chickens will eat the scratch in preference to their proper feed, so their daily protein intake decreases and carbs increase and they start to get fat. The fat deposits around the abdomen and organs and vent but molecules of fat also impregnate the liver making it's structure week and prone to haemorrhaging.
Protein is slower to digest and it therefore fills them up. Chicken feed at 16% protein is formulated so that they will only eat as much as they need without becoming fat. Many people who feed 18-20% protein do so to offset the small amount of treats like scratch that they give. My birds get by absolutely fine on 16% protein although I do make a mash or ferment with a mixture of layer pellets and 18% chick crumbs and give them that as a little treat as well as a small amount of scratch occasionally. I would say that overall they probably average 16% protein.
Sourcing higher protein unmedicated feed like an all flock/flock raiser here in the UK is not easy and becomes significantly more expensive.... at least in my area. Even unmedicated 16% grower can be significantly more expensive than 16% layer feed probably because there is less demand for it and you have to buy a branded product to get it.
You have to remember that eggs are quite high in protein and therefore require protein input to produce them. Having said that, chickens are bred to be productive rather than fed to be productive. Feeding them a lower protein feed is more likely to affect their health before it affects their egg production particularly if they are penned rather than free range. It is not as clear cut as this but these are the issues and the balance of their diet is pretty important, so staying somewhere between 15 and 20% protein in their daily intake is about right... heavier breeds will do better on a slightly higher % protein than smaller more active breeds because they burn less calories.
A less frivolous answer would be to ask how you keep the chickens.
If you free range them and the forage is decent they will pick up much of the things that are missing. I feed 18% protein, 1% calcium to the free range chickens here. I feed more commercial feed in the winter months than I do in the others. I also feed them fish and meat two or three times a week. I don't feed them much meat and fish but some imo isn't a bad idea.
rebrascora points out that breed type may influence the best feeds if your chickens are contained. However, if you want your chickens to have a better chance of living a long and healthy life then looking at the variety of foodstuffs they eat when free ranging should give you an idea of what they think they need.
The feeds that are recommended are as others have mentioned the minimum requirements for maximum egg and/or meat production. When these feeds were calculated the longevity of the chicken and it's overall health were not factors that got considered.
The feeds were primarily developed for production hens which often after two years of life or when their laying slows down are then killed. While it may be true that the high production domestic breeds live shorter lives because of how they've been bred, people do have these breeds that have reached 6 or 7 years old and older.
A bit of common sense regarding diet considering what you want from your chickens will go a lot further than commercial feed recommendations.
If you free range them and the forage is decent they will pick up much of the things that are missing. I feed 18% protein, 1% calcium to the free range chickens here. I feed more commercial feed in the winter months than I do in the others. I also feed them fish and meat two or three times a week. I don't feed them much meat and fish but some imo isn't a bad idea.
rebrascora points out that breed type may influence the best feeds if your chickens are contained. However, if you want your chickens to have a better chance of living a long and healthy life then looking at the variety of foodstuffs they eat when free ranging should give you an idea of what they think they need.
The feeds that are recommended are as others have mentioned the minimum requirements for maximum egg and/or meat production. When these feeds were calculated the longevity of the chicken and it's overall health were not factors that got considered.
The feeds were primarily developed for production hens which often after two years of life or when their laying slows down are then killed. While it may be true that the high production domestic breeds live shorter lives because of how they've been bred, people do have these breeds that have reached 6 or 7 years old and older.
A bit of common sense regarding diet considering what you want from your chickens will go a lot further than commercial feed recommendations.
- Thread starter
- #19
Keeperofmunchkins
Songster
My flock consists of three Bantam hens, two Bantam pullets including one not yet laying, two bantam roosters and a couple of large game hens. I also hatch new chicks at least a couple of times a year. They free range during daylight hours in my garden which is fairly wild and large but I dont know if the bugs are that plentiful or varied around here in the English suburbs. 
My bantams seem very picky in their foraging. My large hens will eat anything. They are all pure breeds and lay quite well except for frequent broodiness.
I literally just switched to grower pellets which still have only 16% protein because I was concerned about too much calcium for those not laying. Grower pellets here seem to just have less calcium and more fat than layer but still the same protein. Only chick crumbs have higher protein at 18-20%. Before the grower I was feeding layer. For a few months I had been using a brand that was labelled 'quail and partridge layer pellets' with 18% protein and smaller pellet size for my bantams that the chickens seemed to love. All the standard chicken layer feeds have only 15-16% protein and I started thinking my birds needed more only because I kept reading about people feeding higher percentages. By that I mean I did not observe any problems with them eating the 16% layer.
Now im questioning if this 16% grower is worse than the 18% layer I had before...but what about the unnecessary extra calcium? Hence the 'GAH!' in the title.
My bantams seem very picky in their foraging. My large hens will eat anything. They are all pure breeds and lay quite well except for frequent broodiness.
I literally just switched to grower pellets which still have only 16% protein because I was concerned about too much calcium for those not laying. Grower pellets here seem to just have less calcium and more fat than layer but still the same protein. Only chick crumbs have higher protein at 18-20%. Before the grower I was feeding layer. For a few months I had been using a brand that was labelled 'quail and partridge layer pellets' with 18% protein and smaller pellet size for my bantams that the chickens seemed to love. All the standard chicken layer feeds have only 15-16% protein and I started thinking my birds needed more only because I kept reading about people feeding higher percentages. By that I mean I did not observe any problems with them eating the 16% layer.
Now im questioning if this 16% grower is worse than the 18% layer I had before...but what about the unnecessary extra calcium? Hence the 'GAH!' in the title.
I feed Non-medicated chick Starter Grower 18% or All-flock/Flock Raiser 20% crumbles, (Whichever is fresher or available) with Oyster Shells separately, to my dual purpose Flocks. Golden Comet Hens 33 months/Barred Rock Pullets 23 weeks.
My Golden Comets feather picked when I changed to a 16% layers feed.
I've never had Bantams or Game hens. GC
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