Q: What exactly constitutes a purebred chicken?

[Briza]

Hi Joseph at Yellow House farm,
So good to see you weighing in again! If I may, one reason it is more difficult to breed poultry into a bottleneck is because of the species wide genetic base and all the sex-linked genes. If one is studying mammalian genetics, one has to be careful about taking that knowledge into poultry breeding. Some of the general theories and laws translate, many do not because the mammal lack the plethora of sex-linked genes seen in poultry. I love books on breeding and genetics. If I may, there are some of my favs which I consider the basis of a well -stocked breeding library: The Card and Van Dort books are especially helpful and enlightening.
Yes, I have successfully strain built in collie dogs http://www.freewebs.com/bellwethercollies/ ( clicking on "Breeding Plans" will reveal the genetic history of the kennel, retired in 2009. Now am doing the same in poultry. http://www.waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/
Last season I did a strain-cross and had lovely results. Only one hen-hatched chick this year as we are taking a break but next year will begin our 3rd generation in Light Sussex. We don't have the Marans any more.
If I was wanting to line-breed, the first thing I would do is surround myself with quality knowledge
which would help me understand what I was seeing in the birds and how to manage cause
and effort for best improvement. These are the 9-10 books I would use as the core of my library
and why :
1. The 2010 APA Standard of Perfection . If you don't know the Standard, it's hard to breed to it.
The 1st 40 pages are extremely educational. http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/store.htm
2. Van Dort, Hancox, and Friends, :The Genetics Of Chicken Colours- The Basics".
An understandable text on "breeding to feather", latter half includes a superb pictorial encyclopedia
of poultry plumage, the pictures are captioned with the genetic formulas. http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina3.html
3. Van Dort, "The Genetics Of Chicken Extremities", A slightly more scientific but readable text
on "breeding to type" devoted to topics not covered in the 1st volume. http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina19.html
4. , Card, Wetherell Henry. , "Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ". By a respected
veteran poultry man describing the major and minor breeding laws. Plus the value of (and a
time tested technique) for linebreeding. Despite the book's age, the knowledge is timeless.
Wid Card was Danne Honour's uncle's uncle. http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
5. Davis, J. H. "The Art of Breeding". A classic, entertaining book describing the basic philosophies
behind "the art of breeding". http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003135401;view=1up;seq=5
6. Brereton ,Grant , "21st Century Poultry Breeding", A great treatment of breeding techniques
focusing mostly on Wyandottes, yet with information for all to enjoy.
http://poultrykeeper.com/book-reviews/21st-century-poultry-breeding-book-review Available thru http://www.Amazon.com
7. Brian Reeder, "An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl"
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/
8. Brian Reeder, " An Introduction To Form And Feathering Of The Domestic Fowl"
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/ Brian writes a column for this ezine: http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/
9. One or two classic books on one's chosen breed.
Many of these classic books are online. My fav book databases are :
Hathi Trust Digital Library
(some texts not available "full view" outside the USA)
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?a=page&page=advanced
Google Books
As these old public domain books get reprinted, they often succumb
to "snippet", "preview" or "limited search" options. If you see one you
like, download it.
http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search
The Internet Archive
https://archive.org/
I am having trouble with this site's security certificate , however, I
think it is the new security software I had installed, not the site.
Core Historical Literature of Agriculture (CHLA)
and of course the rest of the Cornell collections. The James Rice Poultry
Collection is esp. fascinating.
http://chla.library.cornell.edu/

This is the core of my breeding library. The only 2 books I have not read are 3 and 8. I look
forward to acquiring them this year, first 3 then 8. There are always more books to read,
however these 9 or 10 will form a a firm foundation on which to begin. If I could only afford 5,
it would be the 1st 5 in descending order. Books 4 and 5 are readable for free online.

Thank you for the reading recommendations. I'll definitely begin acquiring them and reading through the ones available online.

 

[3riverschick]

The Card book, a slim 55 page volume is very helpful in understanding how to make a small beginning into a vigorus strain.
As far as multiple problems showing up in a small flock, that happened to me 2 seasons ago. The rare strain of Light Sussex I am working with had gotten to the end of easy inbreeding and a cushion problem surfaced. Plus a lack of size. It was beyond my knowledge of poultry inbreeding to fix the problem, tho I do believe it was possible for a more experienced breeder. So I looked around and carefully procured a hen descended from a compatible Light Sussex stain. '
We did the cross last year and it was a nice nick. 25 percent of the chicks grew up to what I was looking for. Now they are just about 1 yr. old and next year we will backcross them in various combinations to reinforce the positive traits we brought in.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Oh yeah, well...digging thru CHLA again smile: The black bold type is a quote I found real interesting.
I always wondered how one developed a feather-sexing strain. Bizra, pages 89 thru 92 of this book may
answer some questions you have about dealing with multiple negative chatacteristics in a flock.

Poultry, science and practice
Authors: Winter, Alden Raymond, 1897-, Funk, Ernest Marvin, 1899-, Gregory, R. W. b. 1893.
Chicago: J.B. Lippincott Co., c1941.
http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi...=frameset;view=image;seq=100;page=root;size=s
" The knowledge of sex linkage can be used in mating birds so that the sex of the chicks can be determined at hatching time by the down patterns. If Barred Plymouth Rock females are mated with Buff Plymouth Rock, Rhode Island Red, or White Wyandotte males, the male offspring will be black on top of the body with a white spot on the head and yellow shanks and beak. The females will be solid black on top of the body with dark shanks and beak. If males of the Mediterranean class are mated with females of the American, English, and Asiatic classes, the female day-old chicks will have well-developed wing feathers (Fig. 47). The males will have very short wing feathers or else none. Rhode Island Red and White Leghorn strains are now available which carry the sex-linked factor for slow feathering. At hatching time it is Fig. 46. A diagram illustrating the inheritance of sex and the sex-linked character for barring. The Rhode Island Red male has 17 pairs of autosomes and 2 sex chromosomes, designated Z, associated with each of which is the gene b for non-barring. The Barred Plymouth Rock female has 17 pairs of autosomes but only one sex chromosome Z, associated with which is the sex-linked gene B for barring, which is dominant to non-barring. The male progeny are barred, whereas the female progeny are non-barred.
Flight feather development in day-old male and female chicks from crossing a White Leghorn male with a Rhode Island Red female. Note the well-developed flight feather of the female (right) and the very short flight feathers of the male (left). possible to determine the sex of the chicks from either of these strains by wing feathers, as noted above. The same thing should be possible with any breed or variety. The sexes of Barred Plymouth Rock chicks can be determined with 90 to 95 per cent accuracy by the down color on the top of the head of the chicks and by shank color. The cockerel head spot is irregular in outline and scattered in appearance. The color of the shank is lighter than that of the female and blends with that of the foot. The pullet head spot is more regular in outline and does not exhibit the scattered appearance present in the cockerel head spot. The pullet shank is usually black or dark amber in color. The dark color in the typical female chick terminates abruptly at the base of the shank or a short distance out on the toes and the remainder is lighter in color. "

 

[3riverschick]

" If males of the Mediterranean class are mated with females of the American, English, and Asiatic classes, the female day-old chicks will have well-developed wing feathers (Fig. 47). The males will have very short wing feathers or else none. "
The reason I find this interesting is because both strains of my pure English strain Light Sussex can be feather-sexed. Now the Light Sussex is an English breed. Both strains I am using came from England thru Canada to the US years ago. Some decades ago ( according to an article I read online) the Canadians decided feather-sexing was a great idea. So they worked to create strains of feather-sexing poultry, even in breeds( like Light Sussex) which were not traditionally known for that trait. So now I am wondering if decades ago the Canadians crossed their Light Sussex with a "Med" breed to get the trait in the Light Sussex. Makes one go..."Hum"....
Best,
Karen

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Inbreeding can cause the accumulation of good traits as well as the accumulation of the bad. If the breed ends up with the first, that's excellent news but I was considering how you would deal with the latter if you ended up with the other and had to introduce something different in order not to lose it entirely. A lot of traits don't cause a problem on their own but in the right combinations can cause an animal to experience poor development and it can take a while for the individual genes in the stock to become common enough that they begin causing problems through combination in one individual. It's easy enough to breed out individual genes that cause problems but genes that are normally harmless, or even beneficial, that cause problems only in combination with other similarly harmless genes are something that might be difficult to control without introducing more variety into the genepool.

This is all hypothetical of course since the only experience with breeding I have is of the small mammalian sort. For mammals it can take a few thousand individuals in the original stock, depending on the species, to produce a population that will not suffer from the accidental accumulation of such traits. If chicken DNA is more diverse to begin with, I can definitely understand that it may take much less than that. I'm just wanting to understand more about it where it concerns chickens before diving in and potentially doing something irresponsible.

If you choose one--or at least no more than a few--breeds and breed only them for several years so that you start to learn what they are supposed to be doing at every turn and if you start to spend time with other breeders, listening to their mistakes and successes and what they've observed, and if you spend time at shows observing high quality stock, you're pretty safe.

You must--MUST--be able to cull without excuse or sentimentalism. However, traits more or less gradually make their way into a given pool. Even if a particular negative gene i emerging in several, even a majority, of birds, if you are breed-aware (because of your specialization), you will notice it and cull it out.

Also, if you want to do this well and if you want to do this right, get into a breed that has been done well and right. Don't waste your time with new fads and the rarest varieties of a breed that were never well-bred or which never possessed a deep gene pool in the first place.

 

[Briza]

" If males of the Mediterranean class are mated with females of the American, English, and Asiatic classes, the female day-old chicks will have well-developed wing feathers (Fig. 47). The males will have very short wing feathers or else none. "
The reason I find this interesting is because both strains of my pure English strain Light Sussex can be feather-sexed. Now the Light Sussex is an English breed. Both strains I am using came from England thru Canada to the US years ago. Some decades ago ( according to an article I read online) the Canadians decided feather-sexing was a great idea. So they worked to create strains of feather-sexing poultry, even in breeds( like Light Sussex) which were not traditionally known for that trait. So now I am wondering if decades ago the Canadians crossed their Light Sussex with a "Med" breed to get the trait in the Light Sussex. Makes one go..."Hum"....
Best,
Karen

I imagine that would be the easiest way to get the gene in there aside from direct manipulation of the genes. Otherwise, you'd have to wait for the gene to spontaneously show up in the breed. I wonder how common spontaneous noticeable mutations happen in chickens.

 

[Briza]

If you choose one--or at least no more than a few--breeds and breed only them for several years so that you start to learn what they are supposed to be doing at every turn and if you start to spend time with other breeders, listening to their mistakes and successes and what they've observed, and if you spend time at shows observing high quality stock, you're pretty safe.

You must--MUST--be able to cull without excuse or sentimentalism. However, traits more or less gradually make their way into a given pool. Even if a particular negative gene i emerging in several, even a majority, of birds, if you are breed-aware (because of your specialization), you will notice it and cull it out.

Also, if you want to do this well and if you want to do this right, get into a breed that has been done well and right. Don't waste your time with new fads and the rarest varieties of a breed that were never well-bred or which never possessed a deep gene pool in the first place.

What are some examples of breeds that have a good foundation? What you're saying makes a lot of sense.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

What are some examples of breeds that have a good foundation? What you're saying makes a lot of sense.

Breeds that would be good for beginners to get their feet wet with. Indeed, if one ultimately wants more than one breed, starting with an "old reliable" before getting into that rarer temmtation might actually set you up to be effective with the rare breed, which many, if not most, are not.

Breeds in which one can find standard-bred stock with relative easy in strong quality:

Barred, White, (maybe) Buff, and (maybe) Partridge Rocks
Dominques
White, Silver Laced, and (maybe) Columbian Wuandottes
NHs
SC and RC RIRs
Buff Orpingtons (make sure they are not English imports which are bred to a different standard and look like Cochins without feathered feet)
White, Light Brown, Dark Brown, and (maybe) Buff Leghorns
SC Black Minorcas
RC Anconas
White Faced Black Spanish
Blue Andalusian
Salmon Faverolles
(maybe) Silvler Spangled Hamburgs
Light Brahmas
Black Langshans
White, Black, Buff, or Partridge Cochins
Black Ameraucanas (do not confuse with easter eggers!)
Sumatras


This is really it. This list is made considering what the average person looking to make a start in standard-bred poultry is likely to find in the sense both of getting one's hands on good stock and in the sense of getting stock that is of such quality as to be a classroom in quality. Those in bold are probably the best. If you start of here, there's a good chances you're starting off well.

 

[nsscchd]

I really enjoy this thread and have found it informative. Thank you to the thread starter, Briza, for posing this question. Though it seems straightforward, it is not as clear cut for those of us used to breeding other species.

The difficulty with this sort of conversation is that it deals with matters in the abstract as great theories, but in reality, it is very hard (or darned easy) to breed a line into a bottleneck.  As long as you begin with enough stock, which is much less than one might think, one can maintain  closed pool for a very long time, respecting of course pedigrees, etc.

Thank you Yellow House Farm for sharing with us your extensive experience. I would like to ask if you could expand on the thought above and define, if you could, what a minimum number of birds one might need to start with. I have read the book many point out by W.H. Card and understand his methods. I also read an article by Robert Blosl in which he describes what he calls "rotational line breeding". It seems to me one could begin with Card's method to establish the type of bird desired and once that has been more or less achieved possibly use the Blosl method to maintain the line while also promoting diversity within the line. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

You also mentioned some breeds that would be good for a beginner. I have read, and taken to heart, the idea that it is best to stick to one variety. One that intrigues me are the Sussex. I really like the looks of the red but I quickly found that they seem to be pretty rare. I was wondering what people's thoughts were on the Light Sussex for a beginner in order for me to learn and develop the Sussex type. If I could figure that out maybe I could move into the rarer color variety. Are there any breeds that I may be better suited with to begin and hone my skills but may benefit me when moving into the Sussex breed?

Thanks everyone!

 

[3riverschick]

I really enjoy this thread and have found it informative. Thank you to the thread starter, Briza, for posing this question. Though it seems straightforward, it is not as clear cut for those of us used to breeding other species.
Thank you Yellow House Farm for sharing with us your extensive experience. I would like to ask if you could expand on the thought above and define, if you could, what a minimum number of birds one might need to start with. I have read the book many point out by W.H. Card and understand his methods. I also read an article by Robert Blosl in which he describes what he calls "rotational line breeding". It seems to me one could begin with Card's method to establish the type of bird desired and once that has been more or less achieved possibly use the Blosl method to maintain the line while also promoting diversity within the line. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

------------------------------------------------------

You also mentioned some breeds that would be good for a beginner. I have read, and taken to heart, the idea that it is best to stick to one variety. One that intrigues me are the Sussex. I really like the looks of the red but I quickly found that they seem to be pretty rare. I was wondering what people's thoughts were on the Light Sussex for a beginner in order for me to learn and develop the Sussex type. If I could figure that out maybe I could move into the rarer color variety. Are there any breeds that I may be better suited with to begin and hone my skills but may benefit me when moving into the Sussex breed?

Thanks everyone!