Q's - fertility rate, roo aggression, when to collect eggs from hens for incubation, etc.

[Chickengirl209]

Hey,
I have some questions about some things, but before I go into it, let me tell you some things about the flocks I am going to tell you about.
I am hoping to have these two flocks so I can incubate eggs to raise more chicks. I will be using most all of the eggs for this purpose.
They have two seperate coops, and the interior of the coop is small and only for sleeping and laying. They have two coops, one for each breed, the interior 4x4x4 in size. The run is only 4x10, but they will be free ranging in the yard most of the day. The run is only for when we aren't home (we are home much of the day.)

Also, I have children, the youngest being 7.

I just got these as chicks. Their is a 10% chance that there will be boys, 90% for females.

Buff Orpington
16 total chicks, currently 3wks old.
Very happy, energenic and strong.
Two of them are obviously more mature in stature than the others. Maybe these are males?
No health problems, no deaths.

Speckled Sussex
15 total chicks, currently 2wks old.
More chill than the Orpingtons, even when the Orpingtons were their age.
No obvious excelled growth.
No health problems, no deaths.

These were my questions:
How old should the hens be before I start to incubate their eggs? I read that you shouldn't have broody hens incubate eggs younger than 18mo, due to the egg's mortality rate, egg shape, etc. Also they said that eggs from hens younger than 18mo tend to be males. Is this correct, or is it a myth?
Also, would I be able to incubate eggs from hens younger than 18mo, because it wouldn't be the hen doing it, but me instead?

For breeding, what do you think the fertility rate of the eggs would be for a 1:15 ratio?

Would either of these flocks have a lower fertility rate because of the breed?

Are any of these breed's roosters known for aggression?

What do you think the personalities of the roos will be, taking into consideration the breeds?

Because of the small space of the coop, there should not be more than 1 rooster per flock, correct?

Thanks all!

Some people I want to tag (I'm sorry if you're getting tired of me!)
@Wyorp Rock
@Kiki
@aart
@Eggcessive
@Mrs. K
@rosemarythyme
@Ridgerunner
@nuthatched

 

[Ridgerunner]

How old should the hens be before I start to incubate their eggs? I read that you shouldn't have broody hens incubate eggs younger than 18mo, due to the egg's mortality rate, egg shape, etc. Also they said that eggs from hens younger than 18mo tend to be males. Is this correct, or is it a myth?

18 months. Total nonsense to me, but do you have a link to where you read that? I'd like to read it in context. I can think of a scenario or two where it would make sense.

When a pullet starts to lay the eggs can be pretty small and the egg needs to be pretty much perfectly put together to hatch. Putting an egg together is a pretty complex process. It's not that unusual for the first eggs to be thin-shelled or no-shelled, extra thick shelled, double yolked, no yolk, or just weird in other ways, some you might not notice by looking. It sometimes takes a while for the pullet to work the kinks out of her internal egg making factory. Most pullets get this straight within a few days but sometimes it takes a little longer. To me it is surprising how many pullets get the first egg perfect.

The smaller eggs when the pullet starts to lay is nature's way of protecting her body from laying really big eggs before her body has matured enough to handle the larger eggs. But the eggs get larger the longer she lays. The tiny eggs could possibly hatch if the pullet did put it together correctly but the chicks will be small. There isn't enough room or nutrients for the chick to get very large.

I've hatched pullet eggs. Some of them do hatch. But my hatch rate with the small pullet eggs is not as good as the rate with larger eggs. Sometimes it isn't bad but sometimes it is really bad. Most of the chicks that hatch do well from any egg, but if a chick dies, it is more likely to be a chick from a small pullet egg. Chick mortality can be higher from the small pullet eggs.

These are the reasons they say do not hatch pullet eggs. But I've noticed if I wait until the pullet has laid about a month before I set her eggs these problems pretty much go away. If a pullet starts laying really young, say16 weeks, you might want to wait another few weeks.

Also, would I be able to incubate eggs from hens younger than 18mo, because it wouldn't be the hen doing it, but me instead?

I don't see any difference in hatching them under a broody hen or in an incubator. I've done both.

Perhaps they are talking about not letting a broody hen less than 18 months old hatch eggs? I've had a lot of hens one year old hatch eggs and they did fine. I've had a few less than a year old hatch eggs and do fine. The reason I've only had a few that young hatch is that most of mine don't go broody until they were older. If they go broody that young and I want them to hatch I give them eggs to hatch and raise.

For breeding, what do you think the fertility rate of the eggs would be for a 1:15 ratio?

Probably really darn good.

Would either of these flocks have a lower fertility rate because of the breed?

Probably not of they are regular Orpington or Sussex. Show quality Orpington have really thick feathers. Very few of us have Orpington with feathers that thick. Some Orpington breeders have had to trim the feathers around the vents of the hens and rooster so he can hit the target. I don't think the Sussex feathers get that thick even on show quality chickens. The vast majority of us will never have that problem but I won't skip it as a possibility.

Are any of these breed's roosters known for aggression?

I assume you are talking about human aggressive. You can find a rooster of any breed that is human aggressive. You can find a rooster of any breed that is not human aggressive. I'm not going to give you any encouragement that your children will be safer because of breed any more than they will be in more danger because of breed.

What do you think the personalities of the roos will be, taking into consideration the breeds?

Same answer as above, no way of knowing. Breeds can have tendencies, but that is when the person selecting which chickens get to breed uses that as a criteria. Even then, it is only a tendency, not a guarantee.

Because of the small space of the coop, there should not be more than 1 rooster per flock, correct?

I'm not going to comment on space, plenty of others are addressing that. I see no benefit of having more than one rooster per flock. Some people like to keep a spare rooster, but not necessarily with the flock.

If you can I'd appreciate that link. I want to see if I am right.

 

[Mrs. K]

It is always helpful to put where approximately you are located, as weather and climate matter.

You asked for my advice: There are a couple of fallacies when it comes to chickens that I am afraid that you have run into:

• being raised together makes for life long friends - being raised together has almost no effect on chickens
• you can cheat on space if you free range, you can cheat on space with chicks in the summer. The days are long, the nights are short, and chicks don't take up much room, but come the fall, birds will be close to full size, and you have to fit the coop.
• My birds just sleep in the coop. Birds need space at night too. They need space above their heads. I like at least a foot above their heads when they are on the roost. Birds make for a lot of moisture. In too small coops, that moisture collects on them leading to frostbite.

You do not have anywhere close to enough room for 31 chickens. Each 4x4 coop will be enough space for about 4-5 adult size birds. BO are large chickens. I am assuming this is 4x4 FEET - but even if it is in meters - then each house could hold 10-11 birds.

What is more than enough room for chicks, rapidly becomes not anywhere near enough room for adults. You really do not have room for them to sleep in there. You would need at least 32 linear feet of roosting space.

Any breed of rooster can be violent. It is a crap shoot. How tall is your 7 year old child? Kids tend to be attacked first, and if you are free ranging, do your children and chickens share the area. Normal outdoor play, running, jumping yelling can be very upsetting to cockerels and roosters. Mostly with roosters, you need a plan B set up and ready to go. Roosters take some experience, and often times people don't recognize the signs of aggression or make excuses for the behavior, until they get a very violent attack.

As to the fertility - I would not add a second rooster, until I had over 20-25 hens. The more roosters you have, the more chance you have of it going wrong. Young roosters generally have a pretty high fertility rate. I always take a peak when I cook with eggs, and mine are covered. As roosters age, this can drop.

And perhaps I am not following your post - but are you planning on breeding for pure bred chicks? Cause a rooster will breed any chicken, if you free range you really cannot get pure bred chicks, unless you only have one breed of birds.

As to age of the birds producing the hatching eggs - generally speaking I would go with the size of the egg. Once the eggs are full size, not pullet eggs, but mine generally reach full size within a month of laying, I would set those with confidence.

I cannot emphasize enough the issue of not enough space. Insufficient space leads to very, very ugly behaviors in chickens. Very ugly.

I am rather curious what your long term goal is: are you planning on selling chicks? Or meat production? You say you do not plan to really eat the eggs, but rather just hatch but I am not quite sure what that means.

Mrs K

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Looks like you have received great suggestions and opinions.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is from a book. The complete herbal handbook for farm and stable by Juliette de Bairacli Levy, first published 1952.
Here is a quote:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I do appreciate it.

Chicks
"As with the young of the larger farm animals, provision for the chicks should begin with the embryo. The hens eggs for hatching should be from birds not less than 18mo of age, eggs from very young pullets producing weakly chicks and a tendency to be a predominace of cockerels.

These do not fit either of my two possible scenarios. One was people breeding for show usually wait for them to get older before picking breeding stock or people carefully breeding for improved egg laying may wait until they have a full season of egg laying to evaluate which hens to breed.

At least half of the eggs I hatch are from hens and pullets less than 18 months old. Individual hatches are often 2/3 or even 3/4 of one sex or the other, but over a span of two years it is almost always real close to 50% of each sex. This is with around 45 chicks per year. I'd actually be happy with a predominance of cockerels since I hatch that many to eat. I certainly have not noticed a weakness in chicks. The hatcheries we buy our chicks from are not going to feed those flocks for 18 months before they start hatching eggs and shipping us chicks.

The cocks should run with the hens a month before fertility of the eggs can be counted on.

This one is certainly nonsense. It takes about 25 hours for an egg to go through the hen's internal egg making factory from release of the yolk to start the process until the egg is laid. That egg can only be fertilized in the first few moments of that journey. That means if a successful mating takes place on a Sunday, Sunday's egg cannot be fertile from that mating. Monday's egg might or might not be, depending on timing but I would not count on it. Tuesday's egg will be fertile.

A rooster does not necessarily successfully mate with every hen in his flock every day but he doesn't have to. In the last part of the mating act the rooster hops off, his part is done. The hen then stands up, fluffs up, and shakes. This fluffy shake moves his sperm to a "container" near where the egg starts its journey. That sperm can remain viable from 9 days to possibly over three weeks. Many people count on about 2 weeks and get decent hatches. But if you go by Levy's one month wait, the vast majority of the matings in the first half of that month were wasted.

The brood hen should be in vigorous health, with heavy plumage, and slightly fat, all to give added warmth, comfort and vitality to the eggs during their daily contact with the body of the sitting bird."

I don't totally agree with this either as to the reasons. Vigorous health, yes. Heavy plumage, well the heat comes from the skin, not the feathers. Some broodies pluck breast feathers to expose more skin to the eggs. That may help with keeping the humidity up some too, not sure about that.

It is true that pullets and hens store up excess fat before they even start to lay. If you ever butcher pullets, hens, cockerels, and roosters the difference is very obvious. That fat is put there for the pullet or hen to mostly live off of while she is broody so she can spend her time on the nest taking care of the eggs instead of having to look for food and water. It is not there to add comfort and vitality to the eggs.

I'm sure that book has a lot of good information in it, but like a lot of posts on this forum you might want to fact check any that you are uncomfortable with.

And once again, thanks for making the effort to post that.

 

[aart]

I think those coops/runs are pretty darn small, especially if you end up with more than a few females.

The run is only for when we aren't home (we are home much of the day.)

If you want to breed pure bred birds, you will have to range the 2 flocks separately on alternating days...or you will end up with cross breed chicks.

What will you do with the extra males?

 

[mcdze]

if your incubating the eggs will be most viable from a younger hen .. id give them a couple of weeks after they start laying to start collecting ..broody hens are likely better with a bit of experience .. roosters follow the rule of top chicken loosely - the bigger they are the more aggressive they tend to be, but, a more dominant rooster will be more successful keeping the flock well fertile, older hens especially can lose respect for a 'nice' rooster that maybe they dont perceive as a good protector etc, and not let him .. again younger birds will be the most fertile .. if you want to keep an operation really going at a high production rate id keep your birds rotated under 2 years ..

 

[Chickengirl209]

It is always helpful to put where approximately you are located, as weather and climate matter.

You asked for my advice: There are a couple of fallacies when it comes to chickens that I am afraid that you have run into:

• being raised together makes for life long friends - being raised together has almost no effect on chickens
• you can cheat on space if you free range, you can cheat on space with chicks in the summer. The days are long, the nights are short, and chicks don't take up much room, but come the fall, birds will be close to full size, and you have to fit the coop.
• My birds just sleep in the coop. Birds need space at night too. They need space above their heads. I like at least a foot above their heads when they are on the roost. Birds make for a lot of moisture. In too small coops, that moisture collects on them leading to frostbite.

You do not have anywhere close to enough room for 31 chickens. Each 4x4 coop will be enough space for about 4-5 adult size birds. BO are large chickens. I am assuming this is 4x4 FEET - but even if it is in meters - then each house could hold 10-11 birds.

What is more than enough room for chicks, rapidly becomes not anywhere near enough room for adults. You really do not have room for them to sleep in there. You would need at least 32 linear feet of roosting space.

Any breed of rooster can be violent. It is a crap shoot. How tall is your 7 year old child? Kids tend to be attacked first, and if you are free ranging, do your children and chickens share the area. Normal outdoor play, running, jumping yelling can be very upsetting to cockerels and roosters. Mostly with roosters, you need a plan B set up and ready to go. Roosters take some experience, and often times people don't recognize the signs of aggression or make excuses for the behavior, until they get a very violent attack.

As to the fertility - I would not add a second rooster, until I had over 20-25 hens. The more roosters you have, the more chance you have of it going wrong. Young roosters generally have a pretty high fertility rate. I always take a peak when I cook with eggs, and mine are covered. As roosters age, this can drop.

And perhaps I am not following your post - but are you planning on breeding for pure bred chicks? Cause a rooster will breed any chicken, if you free range you really cannot get pure bred chicks, unless you only have one breed of birds.

As to age of the birds producing the hatching eggs - generally speaking I would go with the size of the egg. Once the eggs are full size, not pullet eggs, but mine generally reach full size within a month of laying, I would set those with confidence.

I cannot emphasize enough the issue of not enough space. Insufficient space leads to very, very ugly behaviors in chickens. Very ugly.

I am rather curious what your long term goal is: are you planning on selling chicks? Or meat production? You say you do not plan to really eat the eggs, but rather just hatch but I am not quite sure what that means.

Mrs K

Thank you, I will put everything you have said into consideration. I had planned to either range seperately, or to range the hens and not the roosters. Would that work? The coops are chicken tractors so I could move them extra so the boys could have grass too. But would they throw a fit? Also, I guess that would defeat the purpose of protecting....

 

[Chickengirl209]

Might be good to just do one breed and save that second space for extra birds or either gender....and think about making those spaces larger.

Is there a good market for chicks in your area.

Yes, there is. At the local feed store, 125 chicks sell out in 45mins, and the line starts before they even receive news from the post office. It was not an easy feat getting these birds...

And as for the coops... I know they are too small. The builder in my family believes they will fit and is very determined about it, so I'm going with the idea of either they'll see that it's too small when the birds get bigger and will build more space, or we'll sell some. Oh well.

 

[Chickengirl209]

If you can I'd appreciate that link. I want to see if I am right.

It is from a book. The complete herbal handbook for farm and stable by Juliette de Bairacli Levy, first published 1952.
Here is a quote:
Chicks
"As with the young of the larger farm animals, provision for the chicks should begin with the embryo. The hens eggs for hatching should be from birds not less than 18mo of age, eggs from very young pullets producing weakly chicks and a tendency to be a predominace of cockerels. The cocks should run with the hens a month before fertility of the eggs can be counted on.
The brood hen should be in vigorous health, with heavy plumage, and slightly fat, all to give added warmth, comfort and vitality to the eggs during their daily contact with the body of the sitting bird."

Thank you for the information.