Quail, possibly egg-bound, possibly had seizure?

[bathtub]

Sounds like she's not getting a balanced diet.
At this age a poultry layer type crumble feed would be more of a balanced diet that all these extras you are giving her.

Not getting a balanced diet with enough calcium regularly can cause egg laying issues.

Is there a brand of layer feed you recommend?

 

[bathtub]

Update over here:

She made it through yesterday and last night. Yesterday she stayed mostly huddled in her hidey corner all puffed up and looking like she was trying to pass an egg. However, she would come and eat from my hand and then drink when encouraged, so I just kept doing that every hour or so to make sure she didn't get dehydrated or anything. She wouldn't eat her regular food, but would eat sesame seeds, meal worms, and a little bit of kale and apple so I just kept feeding her a bit of that stuff - didn't want to overwhelm her system with treats, and also didn't want to fill her up in case that would cause her not to go to her regular food. But I figured something was better than nothing and she would only drink if she'd been coaxed out with those treats and that seemed like a better way to keep her hydrated than to keep taking her out and forcing a dropper into her mouth and stressing her out.

At one point last night she even went into her sand bath and scuttled around a bit. We put her to bed with the heat and humidifier on and hoped for the best.

This morning I was dismayed not to wake up to her usual calling (she usually makes a lot of racket when the sun rises, kind of sounds like a rusty gate) and went out to the kitchen braced for the worst. To my relief, when she heard me come out she gave me some nice friendly chirps and ate some sesame seeds from my hand again. This morning she seems to be in better spirits - moving around a little more and not appearing to be sitting and straining as much. She still hasn't really touched her food but I will lay off the treats a bit and see if she gets hungry enough to go for it.

This is all a puzzle - I've searched the aviary for any sign of an egg passing and can't find anything. Her belly looks smooth and small, not like there is an egg inside of it, and I've not been able to palpate anything that feels like an egg, even when I've searched inside the cloaca. I'm increasingly suspecting that she is not egg bound and something else is awry. We examined her poops last night and some of them were a bit strange - they had a greenish-yellow tint to them with black spots that may have been partially digested flies. Our new hypothesis is that she may have been having a hard time digesting the flies and that led her to a great deal of discomfort when pooping...still she pooped a lot, and the consistency was pretty normal so I'm really not sure.

We definitely are not out of the woods yet. If anyone has any ideas about what could be happening or how we could keep helping we would be very grateful.

Also, after reading @Kiki's comment, I'm concerned/confused about the food we are giving her. Right now her food is 28% crude protein and around 1% calcium. Is there a different food we should be giving her? I feel like every time I look into this I get a million different answers. If anyone has specific brands they recommend, or could tell me what percentages if protein and calcium I should be looking for, I'd really appreciate it.

On the calcium question - for most of her life I had oyster shells in a bowl next to her food and she seemed to peck at them occasionally. As some point I noticed that she wasn't pecking at the shells as much, and then one day she laid a shell-less egg, so out of an abundance of caution I started putting just a little bit of crushed oyster shell in with her regular food (I know that they are supposed to have a choice about when to eat the shells, but if she wasn't eating the shells at all I figured it was safer to make sure she was getting at least some calcium and not risk an egg emergency). Then, when I took her to the vet about a month or so ago, the vet told me I shouldn't be giving her oyster shells at all and that she recommended using a calcium gluconate solution in her water so that I could be sure she was getting the calcium in the requisite amounts. She said I should use the calcium gluconate when the bird was on-lay, and not give supplemental calcium when the bird was off-lay. A different vet told me to be very careful not to give too much calcium because it could cause, in his words, "total system shutdown." What would you all recommend I do going forward with calcium, given the situation?

 

[Kiki]

Yes there is a different food you should be giving her. the 28% protein 1% calcium is just for the first 6 to 8 weeks of life.
Once the bird is full grown it no longer needs the high protein and it needs more calcium.
It would be best if you switch to a chicken layer type crumble feed.

 

[Kiki]

Also... By feeding so many treats on the regular you're taking away from the bird getting a balanced diet. This is extremely important.

if you want to offer treats do it once or twice a week and just a tiny bit not daily.

 

[bathtub]

Yes there is a different food you should be giving her. the 28% protein 1% calcium is just for the first 6 to 8 weeks of life.
Once the bird is full grown it no longer needs the high protein and it needs more calcium.
It would be best if you switch to a chicken layer type crumble feed.

Thanks - could you elaborate a little more about what a chicken layer type crumble feed is? There are so many options that are labeled "layer feed" but they are so different. What amount of protein should it have? What amount of calcium? Any other considerations?

 

[bathtub]

Also... By feeding so many treats on the regular you're taking away from the bird getting a balanced diet. This is extremely important.

if you want to offer treats do it once or twice a week and just a tiny bit not daily

Noted. The reason I've been giving her suet every day is because she is unusually hyperactive. She is constantly running around and pecking at things, way way more so than any other quail I've ever had (in fact, when she was a hatchling I put her in the infirmary with an underdeveloped hatchling because she was so good at running around all the time and pecking at the food that it got him to do the same - my pet theory is that maybe some quails are naturally more 'peck curious' so that they can learn how to eat different things and then teach the rest of the flock)

Anyway, she is SO active that she over-preens constantly and actually broke most of her own feathers doing so. I brought her to two different vets and both confirmed there was no underlying skin or parasite condition, no evidence of pecking from other birds (which I also hadn't seen, and which eventually became impossible after her roommate unfortunately passed away) and that she was otherwise perfectly healthy. They agreed with me that she was probably just understimulated. So, in addition to building her a bigger house and putting different things to explore in there, I also started scattering some suet around the ground to give her something to scratch at and look for. That seemed to drastically improve her plumage. The overpreening stopped and her feathers became very lustrous.

Do you think I should stop giving the suet? Any other ideas out there about how to keep a quail entertained?

Also, what about live insects? Aside from the flies, we also give her little pantry moths and larvae that we find around the house, not in huge quantities but just as they show up. My understanding was that invertebrate protein was really important for quail and since she's not outside we've been trying to supplement...

Is there any chance this is some kind of parasite? She did just have a stool sample examined about a month ago and the vet didn't see anything concerning.

 

[bathtub]

Just posting an update in case anybody comes across this and is having similar issues:

The bird seems to be doing alright. She never passed an egg. Our best guess was that she was having digestive issues from the flies she was eating. So, word to the wise, don't feed your bird flies!

As for changing her food, I'm still confused about what to give her. I went to the feed store yesterday and bought a layer feed - the best I could find was 16% protein and 3.5% calcium. That doesn't seem like enough protein though, does it?

On the advice of someone in another forum, I also ordered homestead organics quail layer feed online, which is 26% protein and 3.5% calcium. But is that too much protein? Then it seems the only difference between that and the gamebird feed I'm already giving her is the calcium, which she was getting supplements of anyway... I'm also a little concerned that homestead organics has diatomaceous earth already in it...

Any concrete advice on feed would be very greatly appreciated, as it seems there is tremendous variety in different layer feeds, few of which are specifically formulated for quail.

 

[shrimpsilkies]

Just posting an update in case anybody comes across this and is having similar issues:

The bird seems to be doing alright. She never passed an egg. Our best guess was that she was having digestive issues from the flies she was eating. So, word to the wise, don't feed your bird flies!

As for changing her food, I'm still confused about what to give her. I went to the feed store yesterday and bought a layer feed - the best I could find was 16% protein and 3.5% calcium. That doesn't seem like enough protein though, does it?

On the advice of someone in another forum, I also ordered homestead organics quail layer feed online, which is 26% protein and 3.5% calcium. But is that too much protein? Then it seems the only difference between that and the gamebird feed I'm already giving her is the calcium, which she was getting supplements of anyway... I'm also a little concerned that homestead organics has diatomaceous earth already in it...

Any concrete advice on feed would be very greatly appreciated, as it seems there is tremendous variety in different layer feeds, few of which are specifically formulated for quail.

26% is okay, too much protein might lead to larger eggs or maybe weight gain, if you cut it with the layer you have got then it should be appropriate. Calcium is best when it’s in the feed, these birds lay so much that they really can never get enough.

 

[als77]

My quails aren't adults yet, but here are some recommendations I have seen for layers;
1) 24-25% protein, 1.5-2% calcium [Slightly Rednecked]
2) 16-18% protein, ? calcium [Coturnix Corner]
3) 20% protein, 2.25-3.25% calcium [Myshire Farm]

For calcium you can give them crushed oyster shells or egg shells on the side, leaving you with a lot more wiggleroom for the feed itself (just don't go too high in the feed itself)

Protein is more challenging. I saw a study based on 24% protein, but that study didn't compare feeds (just bird colouring). So I guess you're left with trial-and-error based on who you choose to trust

 

[bathtub]

My quails aren't adults yet, but here are some recommendations I have seen for layers;
1) 24-25% protein, 1.5-2% calcium [Slightly Rednecked]
2) 16-18% protein, ? calcium [Coturnix Corner]
3) 20% protein, 2.25-3.25% calcium [Myshire Farm]

For calcium you can give them crushed oyster shells or egg shells on the side, leaving you with a lot more wiggleroom for the feed itself (just don't go too high in the feed itself)

Protein is more challenging. I saw a study based on 24% protein, but that study didn't compare feeds (just bird colouring). So I guess you're left with trial-and-error based on who you choose to trust

Thanks! I appreciate this.

26% is okay, too much protein might lead to larger eggs or maybe weight gain, if you cut it with the layer you have got then it should be appropriate. Calcium is best when it’s in the feed, these birds lay so much that they really can never get enough.

and this

I went ahead and have been trying to give her a mix of both (+ some mixed in with her old stuff). No dice. she won't eat a thing.

This saga thus continues in another post: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ok-who-wants-to-play-wtf-is-wrong-with-this-quail.1451457/