Quality chicken questions

[Alaskan]

Most breeds have a website that is a great resource for reading about exactly what that breed should look like, and sometimes great photos of show winning specimens.

The Feathersite website is nice in that most of the breeds that they show include a link to that specific breed's website.

 

[333113]

Most breeds have a website that is a great resource for reading about exactly what that breed should look like, and sometimes great photos of show winning specimens.

The Feathersite website is nice in that most of the breeds that they show include a link to that specific breed's website.

And I like that they have pics of the juveniles and chicks!

 

[BantyChooks]

I agree that an APA SOP is worth every penny.
Go to poultry shows. Find a breed there that entrances you, that you want to be around every day because they just captivate you. Then join that breed's breed club, find good stock, and start there. Don't get more breeds or varieties than you can handle. Just one is best and most space efficient. Read their standard until you can literally recite it word-for-word. Hatch lots, cull hard, and never, ever sacrifice health and production for colour. Every bird you keep should be one you'd be proud to own even if it suddenly turned, I dunno, purple. Arthur Schilling made many great portraits of older chicken breeds that are pretty good visual guides to the Standard. If you can find one for whatever breed you've selected, print those portraits out and burn them into the back of your head. Ask questions to more experienced breeders. Then listen to it. An eye for a bird takes time, a lot of time. Look at birds that win shows. Compare them, contrast them, figure out how their traits line up to the standard. Guidelines are relative. As you gain experience, well-built birds will become a thing of beauty to you. No matter the breed. Shapes and colours and backlines differ... sturdiness and balance don't. Also, learn to make chicken soup. Lots of it. Some people sell their culls, but I personally don't want lousy quality birds attached to my name.

This is all advice I've been given. It's served me well so far.

 

[BantyChooks]

Hi guys, I’m new so please forgive me if this is the wrong place for this question. I’m curious about learning to recognize quality birds because while I’m new to them now and have no plans, someday I would love to have a great quality flock I could breed. Most of my current birds were sold to me as pet or cull quality which is perfectly fine for me at the moment, I would like to learn as much as I can before I delve into that world! So please, share your resources, your links, and your personal experience!

Also side question, a somewhat local breeder has some silver Phoenix pullets for sale that she describes as being “rooster feathered” and says they would not be show quality themselves but any roosters they produce would be better than average. Has anyone run into this before and know if it’s legit and if it’s a good thing? They’re nice looking birds but I don’t know enough yet to know if I’m being duped.

Yes, it's real. If you want to show roosters exclusively, then sure, it's good. I personally dislike lines tilted strongly in the favour of one sex or the other. Sexually dimorphic birds are about balance, to me. Not perfection.

 

[333113]

Yes, it's real. If you want to show roosters exclusively, then sure, it's good. I personally dislike lines tilted strongly in the favour of one sex or the other. Sexually dimorphic birds are about balance, to me. Not perfection.

Unfortunately, many breed characteristic decisions were chiseled in stone in a standard before we understood the actual breed genetics. Nankins are a prime example. The original European standards for a yellow bird (the name "Nankin" derives from "Nankeen" which is a yellow cloth) were forsaken by APA and ABA for a "mahogany" rooster and a somewhat lighter hen. If you breed any set of Nankins long enough, they will produce lots of lighter roosters and hens,which is closer to the European standards and probably closer to the original breed. Some people cross Nankins with other breeds to get the darker mahogany rooster, more like an Old English Red Ginger than like a yellow rooster. With that cross you do get the darker roosters, but you also get the penciled, darker hens. Ironically, the yellow Nankins themselves will evolve (if you don't cull them) toward the penciling in the hens, which is evidently a normal "wild" trait that allows a hen, and her chicks under her, to hide from predators more effectively.
I understand that there are similar issues in the Ameraucana coloring lines, due to the standards being "voted on" instead of researched.

 

[BantyChooks]

Unfortunately, many breed characteristic decisions were chiseled in stone in a standard before we understood the actual breed genetics. Nankins are a prime example. The original European standards for a yellow bird (the name "Nankin" derives from "Nankeen" which is a yellow cloth) were forsaken by APA and ABA for a "mahogany" rooster and a somewhat lighter hen. If you breed any set of Nankins long enough, they will produce lots of lighter roosters and hens,which is closer to the European standards and probably closer to the original breed. Some people cross Nankins with other breeds to get the darker mahogany rooster, more like an Old English Red Ginger than like a yellow rooster. With that cross you do get the darker roosters, but you also get the penciled, darker hens. Ironically, the yellow Nankins themselves will evolve (if you don't cull them) toward the penciling in the hens, which is evidently a normal "wild" trait that allows a hen, and her chicks under her, to hide from predators more effectively.
I understand that there are similar issues in the Ameraucana coloring lines, due to the standards being "voted on" instead of researched.

Yep. Absolutely. Decent balance can, however, be achieved in many cases. It does result in a higher percentage of culls out of a flock, though, like you've noted.

 

[BantyChooks]

Yep. Absolutely. Decent balance can, however, be achieved in many cases. It does result in a higher percentage of culls out of a flock, though, like you've noted.

I raise Partridge Chanteclers. It's definitely not easy!

 

[Fairview01]

X2 on the Standards of perfection book. Also this book available from the American Bantam Society is outstanding. It pretty much scoffs at the accepted belief we need to take q second mortgage to buy and noted quality stock. If you have patience and are willing to accept culling as the way to flock improvement you should be able to have respectable flock within 3 generations.

I raise and show heritage large fowl white cornish. This year I will hit 300 hatches. Each hatch goes through 7 culls starting with the first one before they even get out of the hatcher. By the time the last hatch gets 3 months old there will be between 30-40 survivors growing out. Stretching necks is a topic no one really wants to discuss but if you want quality its a necessary management tool.

So far this is the first show quality bird that comes close to being a complete package.

 

[Mosey2003]

Male lines and female lines are a real thing. I know that, for instance, in Barred Plymouth Rocks, they still breed lines like that in the UK. I know that some other colors I've seen people say things like, "You want a hen with some extra dark ___ in order to breed better cockerels from her," when whatever that trait is wouldn't be good on the bird in question for showing.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Oh interesting! I’m not really sure if I want breed for roosters specifically. I don’t know anything about showing chickens in general so I don’t have plans to do that at the moment. They are lovely birds though so I may get them just as pets anyways.

Double mating is when you run two different flocks of the same breed/variety. One is for producing better cockerels- cockerel line and other is for producing better pullets- pullet line. It's not to say you couldn't breed the best in one line, good birds can be produced this way, it's to say chances of better quality are greatly increased if you use the double mating system. Many varieties benefit from it. Barred males are very light in color, due to the thin black barring. A cockerel line would consist of seemingly dark pullets as they have wider black barring which in turn produces wider bars on the cockerels. A balanced looking bird that complements a show bird from the pullet line. Silver pencilled and Phoenix pullets benefit from cockerels with white specking on chest, not on throat. The standard is for a full black chest. It's beneficial to double mate to produce full pencilled pullets and have cockerel line for full black chests. It's doable not to double mate but you'll produce far fewer show quality birds that way. Most people have a pullet line and don't even know it. Quality hens are in more demand than show quality cock birds. Though the Phoenix would be counter to that. People would show the cockerels as they are very flamboyant with those long tails.

So on that note you could procure the cockerel line Phoenix and continue that line as such and look for a pullet line in the future or locate a few show quality pullets to breed with your best cock and attempt to keep a balanced line of breeding best to best in a single mating program. The trio competition in shows is where you'd see the birds from double mating systems. That's where two pullets and a cockerel are shown and the trio closest to standard for both sexes and trio that has all three looking alike wins.