Quest for TEXAN PIONEERS.....

[JasoninMN]

Well I certainly "learned" more from this post then I have in the past 25 years of raising pigeons.


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I have a hard time accepting Texas Pioneers as a heritage breed seeing as the are a relatively new modern breed. They weren't even recognized till the 60's as a breed, they have never gained much popularity, and they certainly are not a animal that's been passed down generation to generation a staple of any homestead. Maybe the real reason that no one has them is because while auto-sexing is nice if your a novice, its not that big of a deal pigeons aren't that hard to sex. Also they are not as prolific as many of the other squab breeds and there carcasses often have less meat. Now i can tell you from real life experience that these show birds you speak of have no more fertility problems then the utility birds, unless your comparing them too fantails which the problem is their tail not their reproduction organs. To say that infertility if being bred into them to sabotage squab is a rather silly claim. I don't know too many people who would care what you did with your pigeons as far as culling goes, most show pigeons or sport pigeons that don't make the cut get their necks rung or sold to bird dog trainers. Why would they care if you ate your culls? Sabotaging squab made me chuckle. I have a feeling your research has lead you to pigeon-talk forum which is far from reality of pigeon keeping. There are more breeds of pigeons then any other domestic animal so I am not sure exactly why its necessary to rant about the show breeds when there are many squab breeds to chose from. The show breeds are not ruining the pigeon fancy, if anything its helping keep it from slowing fading away for good.


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How many people do you really think want to eat pigeons? Not many when the public views them as rats with wings.The fact is the majority of these breeds would be gone if it wasn't for pigeon shows. There is no market for squab and if you want to raise meat for the homestead it sure isn't a very economical way. Have you seen the price of a pair of Texas Pioneers? They cost more then most of the fancy breeds. How is the search going finding this fabled meat breed? Not good huh. Why is that? There is not meat market all they have behind them is a good marketing plan. How many do you think are really selling? Not many or everyone would be breeding them. You could take a show bird like a runt, king, moraine, giant homer, etc and cross it to a homer and be well on your way to big squabs. Heck, you could even make the right crosses to auto-sex them. Now if meat is your real goal buy a pair of rabbits or raise some chickens and you will have far more meat in your freezer then you will from a couple pairs of pigeons. Break down the economics of it and you will never come out ahead unless you have free grain. Sorry but your so far off base, maybe you should actually raise pigeons first before telling everyone whats wrong with the hobby. The majority of people who keep pigeons don't show their birds either or breed to a standard but just like chickens the only people selling their birds for any amount of money are the ones winning shows or competitions.


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There is no taboo, there is no market. Pigeons breeders are some of the hardest callers of their stock out there. In my 25 years of actually owning, breeding, and selling pigeons I have never ran in to any of this and have a hard time believing it.


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Have you ever seeing a racing pigeon and a feral side by side, there is no comparison. The racer is a larger bird and much more robust then a feral. Go to a racers loft and hold one of his birds then hold a feral, there is NO comparison. Also when you go to a pigeon show, which apparently you have not pay attention to the classes. Maybe they have a utility class at 4H, which even mutts can compete in which is fine but at NPA sanctioned shows they don't. You also do not have your breeds correct, the MODAINE does not stand on its tip toes. Its actually a pretty "natural" shaped bird just large and a far better meat producer then a Pioneer. The bird you are describing is a MODENA, which was originally for flying in kits so I am not sure why you are comparing it to "utility breeds". Also Pioneers have never been that popular with homesteaders and haven't made a big impact on the pigeon world. To compare then to Californian rabbits/new new Zeland rabbits is silly, people actually rely on the rabbits for meat! More people have squab from homing pigeons then Pioneers!


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Kings are one of the most popular birds at shows. If you butchered at 30 days after 18 days of incubation you might get 2-3 pounds of meat. Whats the point unless you like raising pigeons? 12 squab might be possible but be realistic, its not going to happen unless its a commercial setting and by the way pigeons are not raised in battery cages. In 6 weeks I can butcher chickens that dress out at 6-7 pounds per bird and raise as many as I want with a better food to weight ratio. A pair of rabbits can put over a hundred pounds of meat in the freezer in a year. you would be lucky to get 20 from a pair of pigeons. Pigeons don't scratch and the first ones to get lost are going to be your fat utility birds. Pioneers have never been a flying breed and have no homing ability. They can flutter around but I wouldn't count on them finding much of their food.


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Homing pigeons and racing pigeons are bred for performance not looks and if dove like was better for races we would be racing ferals.

 

[ElizabethAz]

Really don't have time to argue every point, so I will pick out he ones that stick out the most to me...because I honestly found your post interesting too.

Did you read the first sentence of the posting????? If you had, you may have noticed that I said I was looking to add pigeons..not switch to pigeons. And that I had been doing research on heritage breeds when I found Texans. I did not say that they were a heritage breed.

Texans are (like the Californian/ new zealand cross rabbit) in that they were the implementation of hybrid vigor to produce a better squabbling bird. No of course they don't produce as much meat as a chicken, or a rabbit. Chickens don't produce as much meat as goats, pigs, cattle, or deer either! And a young calf or kid goat at 6 weeks is more meat too.

The purpose of the meat pigeon, is to produce more meat compared to the other breeds. However, since they were first introduced, the Texans have suffered at the hands of people that ONLY want a show bird. They breed for color, and shapes rather than utility and IT SHOWS in the end product. Which is why the utility breeds are suffering.

There is no market, because no one has tried to create one. Homesteaders, doomsday-ers, or good old fashioned self sufficient people would be the very first group of people to try and raise these birds for their family...which even if you only got 100 more people to try pigeon, that would still be 100 more people who are unsuspectingly contributing to the success of a species. I don't see any pigeon clubs going out to local cooking events with their "culls" to get the public on board either. Which would actually help generate demand, And get more public interest. People weren't hot on eatting ostrich either, then it turned into a multi-million dollar enterprise. So did turkey burgers...just saying.

And feral pigeons differ from region to region. In Az the ferals are large, bony, robust birds compared to the racing homers that YES I have seen, held in my hands, and helped after they crash land every year on my ranch after getting lost in the monsoon. A feral population is generated and influenced by the breeds of birds that are released and become feral. Some time around 1998, San Fransisco proposed a program to feed the poor with the urban pigeon population-- but found that they were too lean compared to commercially raised birds.

 

[Print Tippler]

How many real racing homers have you seen? Just speculating but there probably a good chance that 95%+ of any feral blood is homer based. How would they get larger than homers? I've seen normal small looking ferals and homer feral throughout Phoenix and have some in my loft right now... I'm in Phoenix and there Phoenix ferals... Which like I said for ALL intensive purposes are homing pigeons through and through.

 

[JasoninMN]

Quote: Chickens produce way more meat then any of those animals. Yeah a cow or pig weights more but when you look at the feed conversation ratio none of them even come close to the chicken. It takes about 3.5 lbs of feed to produce 1 lb of weight gain in pigs, broiler chickens on the average require 1.8 lbs of feed to produce 1 lb, laying hens need 2.0 lbs of feed to produce 1lb, beef cattle, 6 lbs of feed to produce 1 lb of weight gain. Where do pigeons fall? 6.6 lbs of feed to produce 1lb of pigeon which is not very economical.

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Quote: Have you even seen a Texas Pioneer in person? They haven't changed in body type except for maybe a increase in size. If you have seen them in person then why are you not buying them then?The Texan Pioneer Association promotes them as a squab breed so its interesting that if you contacted them they were trying the keep eating pigeon hush hush or turn a cold shoulder. I think they would be a good place to start if this is a endeavor you want to embark on. As with any breed of domestic animal if they were not bred for body shape and color they would all look the same and revert back to a feral type. Its interesting how you admit to never having raised pigeons but have some how already become an authority on judging the quality of birds. I am curious how you really know what shape would define a good meat bird if you have never raised them? The utility breeds are lacking popularity because most people have no use for them, plain and simple.


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Its been tried over and over and over. "Pigeon King" would ring a bell to anyone in the fancy. It's a niche market, it rarely works out, we just don't have the culture for it. Homesteader, doomsdayers and self sufficiency's would eat it if its free, but they aren't going to waste money feeding a animal that has such a poor feed conversion ration unless they plan on starving. They would steal the young of ferals or make dovecots which would house pigeons closer to a feral then a meat breed. The pigeon club doesn't breed the birds, its members do. I am sure some of the members would be happy to give culls to the food bank. Do you think they would take them? Why would people raise them if they can get them for free, that's silly. We have a large hmong population here and they will eat the culls or they can can sold to dog trainers, however you aren't going to get more then a few bucks from either of them per bird. If In have birds that are culls, I just kill em myself versus letting them be tortured for a few bucks. I could raise squab and try selling it but no one is going to pay enough for me to break even. People still aren't hot on eating ostrich. Where are all the ostrich farms now? Where are emus? Llamas? Aplacas? Pot belly pigs? all fads of the past.


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This is interesting, size is the first thing to go when you stop selectively breeding for it and seeing as almost all ferals have racing pigeon blood in them its hard to believe they are bigger then the stock they originate from. It's almost impossible. Now generally animals that live in hot areas are smaller then those who evolve in cold areas, seems odd that it would be opposite for pigeons. I know the pigeons in MN appear red bigger then those I saw in California. They were still smaller then a racer.

Now squab consumption was at its peak during depression and war. The birds that people were eating were the young of ferals whose nests were being robbed and the parents foraged for food on their own. No one at that time could afford to raise pigeons for food. Squab became a delicacy later on and raised commercially by those who could afford feed the birds. The rich made a small demand for larger meatier birds. The homeless could surely benefit from the protein of feral squab and they certainly are not to lean to eat. They would be meatier then mourning doves which 1000's are harvested each year by hunters. I would question the safety of eating them though since so many cities poison the ferals and if not cooked properly they could spread disease.

 

[ElizabethAz]

Lol. Again!!! You completely ignore the very first sentence to jump on your soap box. LOOKING TO ADD PIGEONS not switch to them. You think I don't know about feed conversion?? I raise all my own meat and a good portion of my own feed for said animals on my own property. I raise rabbits, I have goats, and chickens, and a cow. BUT again, looking to add a utility bird because I don't want the smaller dove like birds. That is called a person PREFERENCE.

Never claimed to be an expert, but yes even to this very moment I am STILL RESEARCHING. It's amazing what good old research skills on the Internet can do. And from what i Have seen of all the pigeon breeds i would still try my luck with the texas pioneer because again... That is personal preference. I don't give a rip about your opinion on feral birds, you don't know what the feral population looks like down here, and if I choose not to use them for breeding.... MY PREFERENCE.
I encourage you to look up that study. The issue with the urban pigeons was NOT the safety of eatting them. They didn't start poisoning them until AFTER the study posted its findings. They found that the birds had a higher waste to meat ratio, were lean, and did not provide ample protein sufficient enough to sustain a healthy diet. They attributed this to many factors. Mostly the urban birds diet. And compared to commercially grown poultry, it was more economical for the city to poison the birds than attempt to keep pushing the already failed program.

You don't know much about homesteaders, and like you think I am a pigeon expert.. I can assume you are no expert on people. Homesteaders, and self sufficient people INVEST money into their animals, and any equipment they may use/ need. They don't go out and grab whatever sick free animal they can find. Or crawl under a city over pass to snatch free squab. Those people are hill billies/ trailer trash hicks.

It may turn out that buying cheap commonly available homers is the way to go, but from where i am standing. Buying a bird that is bred to the very purpose i intend to use it for is the way to go, AND i feel the Texan is the way for ME to go. I wouldn't buy a lard pig if i wanted bacon...And like me, a homesteader already has other livestock. And like me would consider using a good solid utility breed to get a better balance of proteins. Some people don't like chickens (gasp!) but they may consider pigeons.

And hunting doesn't supply all the meat you need. Again it's supplementation. Every dove is basically one mouth full of meat.. Well, Your mouth really isn't all that full. Two doves would probably do it. And a common homer is worth three doves, a utility bird is considerably larger in the breast than the homers so one can assume....more meat. And I don't have to spend all day walking in 110 degree desert heat with full camo trying to reach my bag limit before dusk. To me it would be more practical to raise the birds I intend to eat, and save my ammo for another day.

Yes i know the clubs dont produce the birds. But the people affiliated ( the club base, or you could call it the club its self..because without members you dont have a club) arent out there working to promote their breed. If they were, more people on MANY forums including this one would be talking about it. And they are not. Its a niche market, until it becomes the "popular" thing to do. And while its not "popular" to eat quail i can go get quail at the super market... haven't found pigeon or dove yet. Which says to me... If someone has figured out how to get the population to try their tiny bony quail.. Why hasn't a stronger effort been made with dove/pigeon which in my opinion tastes far better? Well.. Because of breeders like you who see a challenge and give up and tell other people not to bother trying.

People that raise pigeon to eat, eat them because they like the flesh. Not because they are going to get rich off of it, or because they are going to replace their other livestock. It might be that they will replace their chickens with a different bird, but are they going to sell their pig or goat too? NO. And not every person that raises these animals has them penned in dirt, and is limited to commercial feed. Guess what? I dont- And neither does anyone around me. Do I speak for the whole nation?? No, just me and what I am capable of.

I have had pigeons in the past. The glorious ferals you speak of. And I know they don't scratch..that is why they didnt do damage to my garden. And I was not impressed with their squab producing ability..back then I wasn't interested in eating them. They were adopted pets. Which is partially why I want to add pigeons. I actually enjoy them, but I want them to perform a purpose. Not just loaf around on my lawn.

However, no one in Arizona raises the birds I want. And many of the breeders i have contacted thus far for homers i believe must hang out on pigeon talk too much, because when contacted.. You find your self on the other end of a PETA battle. In Arizona you DONT find many people willing to sell their birds to hunters, OR for breeding stock to produce squab. I am glad YOU don't have that issue where you are. But on my side of town, saying squab brings out the lynching party!

oh, and YESI have found many sources that call Texans show birds, even the Texas Pioneer Pigeon association is calling them that, AND some of the club members that i have managed to get emails back from have told me that fertility can be an issue. I have heard the same exact thing from the KIngs, but those people have the kindness to at least tell you up front that they would rather not sell utility birds, because they focus on SHOW quality. So I must be wrong then, that there is no difference between the two grades? It sure sounds to me like there is a difference.....
And for the businesses that advertise selling "utility birds" I'm sorry, but paying $100 per pair not including shipping costs, and not getting to see the actual pair you will receive is in my opinion a rip off.

I don't think that makes me cheap. Or wanting anything for free. I just want an honest seller with pricing that matches according to the QUALITY bird they are selling. And I want to purchase birds from some one who is currently using Texans as meat birds, so that they can tell me about their flock and the quality of meat they are currently producing. A SHOW bird breeder who doesn't eat their own meat couldn't tell me squat. They could only assume because their bird fits all the "right criteria". Which if you have ever raised goats.. The breed standard doesnt do crap when it comes down to the flavor or the quality of the milk/meat.

And I don't want to pay for a bird that is not going to produce what I am looking for. Which I don't feel is the common homer, or a tippler, or a parlor roller, or a owl, or english carrier, or magpie, or iranian this and that, or any other non-utility bird. No, I don't want the scraps either..even if they are free.

 

[fowlsessed]

I'm missing the main point of this whole thing because there's no way I'm reading all this argument. Anyone care to outline, SHORTLY, the main point of this thread?
Anyway, just reading the first post, Elizabeth, I can see you need to stay off of "pigeon-talk". That's not the place for utility breeders! Those people don't only not eat Pigeons, but nothing else, either.
If you want pigeons for meat, why not just go with utility kings, which would be much easier to find then your 'Texans', at least it would be for me. It's the same thing as with chickens, the bigger, the more they eat and more meat they produce. The smaller, the less they eat and less meat, too. But the smaller ones can forage, important, just like it is with chickens. Big ones, penned all the time, eat, eat, eat.

 

[JasoninMN]

Here is where we are different, one of us has real life experience, one doesn't with pigeons. I get your first sentence quite clearly, you want to raise pigeons for meat which is great. However, the rest of the rant, ideas and opinions are pretty off base from facts and reality. What the heck is the difference if you are adding or switching, really it doesn't matter the birds are going to perform the same either way. I never said you were switching to them. You went on the rant about how these birds have so much potential and how there is so much potential if they were marketed as meat birds but miss the common sense aspect of why many don't raise them for meat. I have been homesteading for quite some time. Maybe we homestead differently but if you want to be self sufficient you need to make the most out of what you have and the best feed to weight ratio. You said it takes 6 months to get a chicken to butchering size, it should only take 6 weeks. I thinking you confused homesteading and hobby farming anyone who wants to raise meat efficiently is not going to raise pigeons. Now if you want to raise an animal you enjoy have around and eat the excess meat and don't care about costs pigeons might be it. You can argue history all you want but more feral squab have been eaten during depressions and war time then any other period by stealing the babies from feral nests or making dovecotes. Sayingb they are too lean is ridiculous! You came on slamming pigeon fanciers and how the hobby is so messed up but yet you have never raised a pigeon. Reminds me of the crowd who sit around and complain about show dogs but have never placed a working title or even a obedience title any any dog they have ever owned. If you don't want a foofy show breeds then don't get one but whats the point of slamming the people who do raise them? It doesn't make you look more educated on the subject especially when your spouting off about breed standards and don't even have the right name of the breed your complaining about and comparing to another breeds standard and other misinformation. There is no point to this argument anymore, your arguments are starting to contradict yourself. I just saw pioneers being auctioned online, they didn't sell. They have been listed 2-3 times now. You might want to watch slobberknockers but I am sure there will be something wrong with those birds as well, since they are being judged against internet pictures. Unless the birds being sold have done well in some type of competition, I doubt anyone selling them is going to care what you do with the babies. If it really was a concern why even tell them your going to use them for squab?

 

[Print Tippler]

I agree with Jason. You came on here ranting about this ans than and saying show birds are infertile and this was done to sabotage squabbling attempts. Just really strange stuff, were you excepting to gather a bunch of support? I said what feral population looked like down here also for Jason and anywhere else. Ferals are pretty much the same all over the United states. They are based on the vast majority of homeing pigeons. Ferals in Phoenix are not larger than homers. I've been around a lot of Phoenix and seen the Ferals, I have Ferals that were caught about 3/4 of a mile from my house and use them pump from. I know what they look like and how big they are. Some are basically pure homers in large statue while others are a little smaller with smaller nose Ceres.

 

[ElizabethAz]

I am Slamming the hobby because I like the look and useful potential of a Utility bird over a common homer or show bird?? Really???
Or because I want to use a Utility bird for what it WAS CREATED FOR as opposed to wanting a common homer, feral homer, or show bird?? Wow ok.

Or am I slamming the hobby because I don't like the fact that the hobbiests have and are changing what was a perfectly good utility bird into a largely useless show bird? Well then yes. I am slamming everyone who focuses on breeding pretty colors and extreme shapes over the utility of the breed. And Yeah, I think that is sabotage, and ruins the animal-- no matter what the species. And sorry if I think having a rubber ducky shaped bird doesnt do the breed justice. and think they are butt ugly.

I have perused many chat forums and on the BUYERS side all you read about is how hard to find a good utility bird is, and from the HOBBIEST side you read oh how the utility birds are so un popular, how infertile they are, and how HORRIBLE it is that anyone would want to eat them.. MAYBE I am wrong putting 1&2 together and comming up with the obvious answer. What use is a meat bird that doesn't breed well or produce meat? Am I also wrong for wondering WHY no one appears to be activity trying to get down to the bottom of the problem? Or fix it??? Guess so! Yeah, i am starting to see how Breeding poor quality reproductive traits in favor of color or increasing numbers of birds to sell at premium prices Is also wrong of me to judge.

But since I am not a "pigeon" person, just an outsider looking in. Maybe what I see is what OTHERS see and maybe that is the problem with pigeons being unpopular as a whole.

And to the both of you...I also don't need experience to want to try raising a Utility breed, OR to decide that I don't want to start with a common homer or feral.. Unless its common practice to use poodles for herding cattle instead of cattle dogs.....but I know for sure I don't know ANYTHING about dogs....

 

[larrylofts]

i do not think i have ever heard of someone saying bad things about people that raise birds for there table except for the folks like on p.t. you are very right about how breeders of birds that have put raiseing there own young to the back seat of raiseing a champion useing fosters looking at show kings next to utilty kings it is hard to believe they started out the same i know that show king breeders use foster to get more young out of each pair but they can still raise young at a much slower pace this is the way many show breeds have gone beauty is in the eye of the fancier fancy raceing homers rollers high fliers so on so forth we like pigeons that why we are hear we look at it differently gaint homers hubbels utily kings carneau may be easier to find or some crosses of these we are all in the pigeon hobby to enjoy them how ever you want