Question about changing flock's feed?

[Phantom_k9]

Hello
We have recently lost a young cockerel (4 months old), suddenly and out of the blue. I have already made a few threads about trying to figure this out, however I still am a bit confused on what did him in.
Without posting pictures, he did have a pale / fatty liver, leading me, others on here, and even a vet working at an avian lab, to believe that this could have been a prominent issue leading up to his passing. We have been giving the flock layer feed, with a bit of start and grow. I have learned that you *can* give roos layer feed, but that you are not supposed too. Roos don't need the calcium and the high amounts of "energy" (as the lab vet phrased it).
With this, we have an older roo who hasn't been in good health for some time now (we thing he is going blind, not sure, he just isn't himself). The vet told me the first thing I need to do is take him off of his current diet, and switch him to an "all flock" or regular feed. This roo is one of two confirmed males in the flock, and I don't know how we would be able to maintain such a diet while letting the rest of the flock free range out in the yard. We do provide the flock layer feed, while allowing them to forage on their own.

My question is this; how could we go about making sure our roos don't eat the layer feed, while making sure the ladies do? We can't watch over them all day, and separate everyone multiple times a day. With that, if we had to keep our roos penned up then that would defeat the purpose of having them. My first idea was to switch the whole flock to "all flock" or "regular feed", while providing everyone with egg shells and extra oyster shells in order to make up the calcium needs. Would this work? If not, what can I do in this situation?
Thanks in advance!

 

[MarkJr]

I feed my flock a 18-20% all flock and oyster shell on the side. So far, this has worked the best for everyone’s health. I seem to have chickens from day old to who knows how old as well as roosters. It was the only way I could do it easily and it works great.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

My first idea was to switch the whole flock to "all flock" or "regular feed", while providing everyone with egg shells and extra oyster shells in order to make up the calcium needs. Would this work? If not, what can I do in this situation?

I use Purina Flock raiser with oyster shell on the side for active layers.

Whether the energy comes from carbs including fiber or protein.. doesn't change their energy level it only changes the nutrient profile.

I highly doubt your cockerel suffered from calcium issues which ultimately results in kidney failure. They liver condition points to more like genetically influenced.. at his age.. He still should have been eating only the start and grow.. not the layer with start and grow mixed in.

Since making the switch to flock raiser and NEVER looking twice at "layer" since learning the difference.. my older birds enter molt less harshly and return to lay sooner. Also more nutrient are going onto the eggs your family is consuming.. Most "layer" feed is 16% protein, close to the minimum to keep a light bodied layer like Leghorn in good condition. I didn't stat keeping chickens to aim for minimums.

I would suspect and test for Marek's or something else that brought upon a perfect storm.. including looking for coccidiosis. Fatty liver syndrome is often brought on by excess energy.. but not excess nutrients.. for example excess scratch or corn.. in a ration it's balanced with other things.. by itself.. without added nutrients which include amino acids, vitamins and minerals.. the birds meet their energy need but not their NUTRIENT need.. which supports all body/organ functions.

Please understand that the genetic component should not be understated here.. Some roosters will live happily ever after eating nothing BUT layer feed and NOT free ranged either.. and not have a liver or kidney issue one! Some breeds are more genetically prone to fatty liver (Orpington).

Sorry for your loss.

Sounds like your vet is mostly spot on.

My personal diagnosis or rather top suspects.. of your cockerel with very limited information.. is either malnutrition, brought on by using layer feed. Coccidiosis, as only ONE strain will present as blood in droppings. Marek's disease virus sometimes equals spontaneous death and the age is right.


Also will state.. that while Roos might not need extra "energy".. at 4 months old he was not a rooster.. and layer is limited in energy really, the calcium being an empty filler doesn't provide energy. Our system is not really set up for long term keeping of roosters.. Grower, All Flock, or Flock Raiser.. are the best choices, depending on what's available to you, with a FRESH mill date. Starter is also okay.. none of those terms mean anything except to confuse you and sell more products.. The MAIN difference in ANY of the is PROTEIN and CALCIUM content.. followed by amino acids and other vitamins/minerals.. Stay between 16-22% protein and around 1-2% calcium.. with oyster shell available free choice.. and you should be doing just about as good as you can.. remembering to keep treats below 10% of the total daily intake.

Please note that with this feed routine, folks say my eggs shells are so solid they know they aren't mine if they crack instead of bouncing when dropped. They only time I ever have soft or weak shells is when it's a new layer hiccup or a returning layer from molt and their reproductive system are still working out kinks.

The cockerels, roosters, chicks.. may sample the oyster shell but they don't tend to overindulge and is much different than not being able to avoid it.

If you wan't me to look at your other threads feel free to link them here. I'm no expert or vet but sometimes fresh eye can help.

 

[Phantom_k9]

I use Purina Flock raiser with oyster shell on the side for active layers.

Whether the energy comes from carbs including fiber or protein.. doesn't change their energy level it only changes the nutrient profile.

I highly doubt your cockerel suffered from calcium issues which ultimately results in kidney failure. They liver condition points to more like genetically influenced.. at his age.. He still should have been eating only the start and grow.. not the layer with start and grow mixed in.

Since making the switch to flock raiser and NEVER looking twice at "layer" since learning the difference.. my older birds enter molt less harshly and return to lay sooner. Also more nutrient are going onto the eggs your family is consuming.. Most "layer" feed is 16% protein, close to the minimum to keep a light bodied layer like Leghorn in good condition. I didn't stat keeping chickens to aim for minimums.

I would suspect and test for Marek's or something else that brought upon a perfect storm.. including looking for coccidiosis. Fatty liver syndrome is often brought on by excess energy.. but not excess nutrients.. for example excess scratch or corn.. in a ration it's balanced with other things.. by itself.. without added nutrients which include amino acids, vitamins and minerals.. the birds meet their energy need but not their NUTRIENT need.. which supports all body/organ functions.

Please understand that the genetic component should not be understated here.. Some roosters will live happily ever after eating nothing BUT layer feed and NOT free ranged either.. and not have a liver or kidney issue one! Some breeds are more genetically prone to fatty liver (Orpington).

Sorry for your loss.

Sounds like your vet is mostly spot on.

My personal diagnosis or rather top suspects.. of your cockerel with very limited information.. is either malnutrition, brought on by using layer feed. Coccidiosis, as only ONE strain will present as blood in droppings. Marek's disease virus sometimes equals spontaneous death and the age is right.


Also will state.. that while Roos might not need extra "energy".. at 4 months old he was not a rooster.. and layer is limited in energy really, the calcium being an empty filler doesn't provide energy. Our system is not really set up for long term keeping of roosters.. Grower, All Flock, or Flock Raiser.. are the best choices, depending on what's available to you, with a FRESH mill date. Starter is also okay.. none of those terms mean anything except to confuse you and sell more products.. The MAIN difference in ANY of the is PROTEIN and CALCIUM content.. followed by amino acids and other vitamins/minerals.. Stay between 16-22% protein and around 1-2% calcium.. with oyster shell available free choice.. and you should be doing just about as good as you can.. remembering to keep treats below 10% of the total daily intake.

Please note that with this feed routine, folks say my eggs shells are so solid they know they aren't mine if they crack instead of bouncing when dropped. They only time I ever have soft or weak shells is when it's a new layer hiccup or a returning layer from molt and their reproductive system are still working out kinks.

The cockerels, roosters, chicks.. may sample the oyster shell but they don't tend to overindulge and is much different than not being able to avoid it.

If you wan't me to look at your other threads feel free to link them here. I'm no expert or vet but sometimes fresh eye can help.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...d-asleep-in-the-coop-warning-graphic.1425660/
This is the link to the primary thread I made about trying to figure this out / doing a necropsy. The necropsy pictures are on page 3 and 6. This thread was initially about trying to figure out what is wrong with our oldest roo, but turned into a deep dive into a necropsy.

The vet didn't clearly say that "he died of a fatty liver", he did give me three other ideas.
1) Marek's (which I am praying against as there wouldn't be anything I could do)
2) Some unknown infection (I haven't seen a bloody stool, and we have been giving them medicated start and grow)
3) Something to do with his diet / fatty liver (basically saying he should not have been on layer feed).

The age, his symptoms, and the way he passed in the end are very confusing to me. There are more details on the thread I linked above, but it is all very confusing. I personally believe he had a heart attack at the end, but I can't confirm this, nor does that really explain his other symptoms.

With that, I don't think this is an infection, because I haven't seen any signs of a spread (still remaining vigilant), no bloody stool, nor did I see any signs of an infection upon looking internally. I also don't want to assume it was Mareks, because there were no tumors (as per one of the two strains the vet explained to me). It could have been the neurological infection of Mareks, but aside from testing I wouldn't know. Money is pretty tight for us, otherwise I would have just sent in the whole bird and wouldn't be making the fuss that I am, lol.

I would be lying to you if I said that I understand everything you said in your initial post. For this whole week I have had a lot of numbers and percentages and other things thrown at me. However, I am getting the feeling that you are saying that switching to an "all flock", or "flock raiser" (which we just bought), is a good idea while providing either egg or oyster shells (or a mixture of both), free choice. Still trying to figure this all out...

For reference, this bird was a barn mix that we hatched from our RIR Hen and our Golden Laced Polish Roo. We hatched a total of three birds, the first killed by a hawk, the second with a scissor beak and other issues (that we may have caused during the process of turning the egg), and this guy (who quickly over took the second bird in size, despite being younger, while keeping in kind that the scissor beak can't flourish like the rest). It is entirely possible that he just got a bad hand during the game of genetic poker, but aside from spending more money than is sensible, there isn't a way for me to rule this out. With that, I am just trying to rule out the things that I can test for, and the things that others can help me to figure out. I have *almost* ruled out the idea that he had an infection (however he was sick for about a week. Check the other thread for a better description), Mareks is still on my list as something that is unlikely but not wise to discreddit, fatty liver seems to be at the top of the list just because of what I saw / have been told, and genetics are at the bottom.

This whole thing has been very confusing...

 

[EggSighted4Life]

This whole thing has been very confusing...

First and foremost.. Dear chicken friend.. YOU have been very brave!

Second, I completely understand where you are coming from.

The one thing a lab does that home necropsy won't is microscopic tissue samples both inside the intestines and the brain tissue.. they can detect so many thing that we cannot. After reading your other thread, you do NOT want to hear my honest assessment!

Suffice it to say.. call it the perfect storm.. and move forward.

I do think it was a combination of things and that NOT pointing fingers at you.

The puking in the other thread.. means crop issue, also very common with Marek's. Too many things looking similar to Marek's symptoms to truly rule it out. It isn't the scary monster made out to be. BUT, many organ won't work correctly without correct nutrient and so the nutrition thing IS a possibility.. BOTH can cause neurological symptoms.

The state poultry vet at UC Davis states that Marek's is EVERYWHERE. Some birds will have natural resistance.. others.. weaken the immune system by malnutrition.. all bets are off.. organs cannot function without the correct mineral and vitamins.. organs that don't function don't filter toxins.. or make repairs to damaged cell.. they cannot even reproduce functioning cells. Visible tumors that cause sciatic pressure and limping or lameness are only ONE symptom of Marek's. With regard to heart attack.. The heart is just a single organ and other organs are obviously showing signs.. yes, congestive heart failure can be caused by fatty liver/kidney failure.. it build fluid around the heart. But not actually caused by a heart problem, just the heart pays the final price, drawing the line in the sand and saying enough is enough. An actual lab can also look at the different heart valves etc.. I was shocked at the difference in what they could detect verses myself!

For future reference and because it seems like you really DO wan't to know more than hopeful denial.. There are FIVE contacts listed for Texas in the following link to State Poultry Labs.. maybe find out which one is closest to you, what their fees are, and their process pr how the want it packaged.. Maybe you have more than one option. Necropsy is often free or affordable to back yard keepers as a means of protecting our food supply chain.. Though Marek's is not considered a threat or even re-portable, and just stinks for keepers. In Ca, it's only $25 for 2 birds plus shipping..
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahln/downloads/all_nahln_lab_list.pdf

Noting Marek's vaccine ONLY hides symptoms of the disease and doesn't actually prevent the disease from hiding in you flock or spreading to other's flocks..
Marek's Virus FAQ

And another thing.. chickens will do everything in their power to hide anything that is "off".. otherwise they become weak links more likely to be preyed on and even maybe brutally ostracized from the flock. By the time YOU noticed something.. there was a definite issue brewing long before that.

My first idea was to switch the whole flock to "all flock" or "regular feed", while providing everyone with egg shells and extra oyster shells in order to make up the calcium needs. Would this wor

Yes, this is a very acceptable choice!

Sorry, I know I go all over the place too with numbers and such and I know how overwhelming it can be. Hang in there, gather your thoughts, do some review.. and hope you have strong solid hatches in the future!

 

[Mrs. K]

A couple of things to focus on:

• your other birds are healthy
• it is not uncommon to have a sudden unexpected death at about 4 months of age. As they approach full size, a genetic malfunction can cause a bird not to be able to maintain life at a large size. It is irritating, but if nothing seemed to be wrong, but they were just dead, I tend to think this is the culprit, especially if everyone else is fine.
• Chickens were allowed to scrounge for any feed source that they could find for CENTURIES, I am pretty confident in ANY commercial feeds meeting the needs of any backyard flock. Once, I was in contact with a professional breeder, asked him what he fed, already to start cooking. He said, commercial feed. They test it, they are inspected, and it is good feed developed FOR chickens. I go with that too.

Truthfully, I think you are worrying yourself sick for nothing. Chickens tend to be short lived animals. There are exceptions, but if the average is 3 years, well then, many die much before that, and many die after that age.

As long as chickens are alert, active, and laying, they are doing fine. I try and keep a flock, not a bunch of individual chickens, I tend to keep a cycle, as in I add chickens and loose chickens each year. Otherwise it is too hard on your heart.

Mrs K