question about duck genetics

[Dances with Ducks]

Thanks

 

[CityChicker]

So, Dances with Ducks... It is hard to tell from the pic (probably my monitor), does that duck have blue wing speculums or brown? Is her plumage more brown or black? It looks like (from my computer) she is a Gold phase. One thing that is very deceptive is that some of the Silver phase are actually more Gold/Fawn in appearance than a lot of the Gold phase. The Holderread's put some new pics on their website a few weeks ago that show that as well.

I wonder if sometimes people have Silver, but think they have Gold (or vice versa). That would explain why someone could breed two Golds together and get Silver, because one is really Silver not Gold. For reference, the pic of the Gold on Webfoot's website is definitely Gold.

Anyway, the more I research the colors of the WH, the more confusing it gets. Dusky pattern creates hooding and obscures facial stripes, which makes me think that some of the WH lack the dusky pattern (for example, the ones on Metzer's website). The appearance of the cap on some, especially the line from Metzer's, could be the appearance of the crown stippling looking more distinct because of the lack of fawn color or there could be something else at work. Personally, to me, it looks like some of the WH from Metzer's have a broken pattern in their background (like Magpie pattern).

Depending on how new a bloodline is and what has been bred in or out, could greatly change the phenotype. It seems obvious that a bird could be m+/md (or have unnamed genes at work) since there is such dramatic variations in plumage. We know for sure that they can also be li/lih rather than lih/lih because that is seen in Australian Spotteds and this would also affect plumage color. We also know that they can be D/d, not just d/d or some books say d/- since it is sex-linked (which is what creates the Gold). One other question though is whether the brown dilution can ever appear incompletely dominant, like blue, or if there is another set of genes at work. Again, this might explain why someone would think they have a Gold, breed it to Gold, and all Silver offspring pop up.

My male that is Gold *DOES* not appear the same as the females. The last time I examined him closely, his speculum was intermediate between the Gold females and the Silver males. It was more of a greenish brown. Of course, he is still very young. I am going to go out, catch some of the WH and look at them more closely again since we are going to try to sell some this weekend. I will check him out more closely and report back, LOL. I'm sure he will just be thrilled.

 

[Dances with Ducks]

Although it doesn't show in the pic, that hen has a very blue speculum, definately Silver. My two new ones, male/female have blue speculums, but they looked a bit more green at first. The new female has a hood. I do know the mother of the drake was Gold. It seems to me every photo I have seen of Gold hens are hooded, does it seem the same to you. So are the traits Gold and hooded connected? (You jumped way past my understanding with your answer!)
But I'm starting to wonder if I should be buying one of your Silver drakes with a non-hooded hen if you still have a pair! If it's a choice between Gold and non-hooded I have to say I very much prefer non-hooded.

 

[CityChicker]

You know, I am really not sure about the hooding at this point, LOL. I have one female that has very pronounced Gold hooding and she is a Gold (I *love* her coloring, but technically- it is a fault). A couple of my other Gold females have no hooding and their body coloring is very light. I will check them all out later when I catch them and see how much they may have changed the last few weeks and get back to you. My husband is screamin' at me to get off the computer and get going today, so it may be later tonight or tomorrow. LOL.

 

[CityChicker]

Okay- so I examined all my WH again. I am inclined to think the hooding of the females is related more to the dusky genes than to the brown dilution (which is what makes a WH become Gold phase). Of course, we may not be talking about the same thing when we say hooding. When I say hooding, I don't mean the solid looking Magpie-type caps like some of the WH from Metzer's have. I mean a full hood that entirely covers the head (similar to the head of a drake) that is a few shades darker than the body.

I have five Gold phase females. Three of them have no hooding really. One of them has a distinct hood and the fifth one has a very slightly shaded hood. All of them have bronze wing speculums and they also vary in body color. The one with the prominent hood also has a darker fawn body color. Her body color is almost identical to my Gold drake. Both of the two darker birds are also about 25% smaller than the lighter colored birds. WH had Aylesbury blood added early on in the development. That is what created what we call Silver here in the US. It also made the birds bigger than the original version (what we call the Gold in the US).

What I suspect is that the Holderread's sometimes breed back to Khaki Campbells since that is where the brown dilution comes from and might also explain why my darker Gold birds are smaller. Interestingly, the WH were originally called Honey Campbells because they have the color of honey. My darker birds definitely are the color of honey which makes me think they may be closer in color to the original birds, although hooding is now considered a fault. Anyway, some of that is just conjecture on my part.

I think I posted this picture before, but this shows some of my females pretty clearly. The one in the back is the darker Gold with hooding. The two in the front are two of the lighter Gold. Of course, keep in mind also that these are just babies. They will still change in color and I have heard that even once they have their adult plumage the hens change a lot in color throughout the year.

 

[Wifezilla]

Oh WHY OH WHY are you people with extra drakes so far away from me?!?!?!

Are you sure none of you are vacationing in Colorado this year???

(I am rehoming my rouen and should have room for a WH drake soon...LOL)


As for the blue speculum feathers, Shelley has one. One...on her right wing. Nothing on the left. She is a Metzer duck. Her two "sisters" look more like golds. They have brown markings, slight caps, and no blue.

 

[CityChicker]

Wifezilla! I have extra drakes and I am in Colorado! I have some Silver drakes and pairs of Silver Drakes with Gold Ducks that I am selling. We are in Lakewood. My husband will be around to show them later today and this week since he is on break from school.

 

[CityChicker]

On the topic of the genetics of WH color- I thought I would add a couple of things. Drakes that carry the brown dilution (there are several different color and breeds in ducks that do) can be mated to black or grey females in a sex-linked mating. I think most of us know this already.

The confusion, for me anyway, is what the reciprocal mating will do in WH. Holderread's say in their book that a Black or Grey drake (like a Silver WH) mated with a female that carries brown dilution (like the Gold WH) will result in all Black/Grey offspring. I just *know* that I read somewhere (maybe in one of the Ashton books) that this mating will produce a mix of Gold and Silver drakes and ducks. Maybe I am not remembering correctly, but it would seem logical if it is possible for a drake to be heterozygous for brown (D/d), which I know for sure that the Ashtons say is possible. If it is possible, you should get 50% Silver heterozygous for Gold and 50% Gold.

If Holderread's are correct though, how would anyone ever get Gold drakes without breeding Gold to Gold (and Gold drakes seem almost impossible to find)?The only other way would be to breed back to Khaki's unless someone is lucky enough to find the elusive Gold drake.

 

[L0rraine]

Darn you guys and your WH pics. I've got my hands full with my Runners (and a few other favorite "mutt" ducks), but I'm thinking your WH ducks are all gorgeous (and Streemers lives dangerously close). I'm especially loving the Silvers, but then I seem to have a thing for blues. Maybe I better start working on expanding my housing facilities for next Spring?

Just noticing that the females seem to have mostly black bills, but not the males? Or am I just imagining this? I seem to be drawn to black billed ducks as well, so maybe that's why I'm finding them extra lovely.

 

[CityChicker]

Yeah, those black bills make the females even more beautiful. At least I think so too anyway.

The bill color is sex-linked as well.

I just *love* rare colored Runners though. The Silver Runners are just amazingly beautiful. That is probably my favorite duck color (that and Saxony). I just hatched out my first Blue Fawn Runner. Next year, I am going to try to breed Blue Fawn, Pastel, Saxony, and Silver in the Runners.