Questions about fermenting chicken and quail feed

[GardenBlooms22]

Hey everyone! I know there's been so many threads already posted on here about fermenting poultry feed, but I have a few questions I couldn't find answers to on the other threads. I'm a total newbie when it comes to raising fowl (I've literally just got started with them in the last about 2 months), so I apologize if these are obvious questions.

To start, I'm not asking whether it's possible, or safe to ferment feed for either chickens or quail. I know (from my own research) that you can ferment both feeds, and that it is beneficial to the birds.

By reading up on the topic, I know that there are many different ways you can ferment their feed, but by what I've gathered it's the same process for both the chicken and quail (game bird) feeds.

Some people pour their feed into the container they're using (usually a glass jar or food grade plastic bucket) and fill it most of the way with water (leaving a few inches for at the top for expansion). Way more than the feed will actually absorb. Many say the feed should always be fully submerged in the water, and if not mold and other bad bacteria can/will grow on the surface of the feed, forcing you to discard the whole batch. They usually ferment it for one to three days (stirring about three times a day), only making enough fermented feed to feed their flock for one to two days. Once it's fermented they'll serve it (the whole batch) to their flock, saving the water in the bucket (they usually scoop it with something like a mesh strainer). They then proceed to fill the container (still with the old water) with new dry feed and top it off with a little extra water. This is supposed to jump start the next batch of fermented feed, being fermented and ready to serve in as little as 24 hours.

Others fill their container with a 1:1 ratio of feed and water (making enough fermented feed to feed their flock for one to two days), let it ferment for one to three days (stirring it about 3 times a day), and serve it. They say it should be about the consistency of oatmeal, and that they just pour the wet feed into their feeders. They don't seem concerned if the feed is submerged in the water at all times. Then they'll just start the process all over again for their next batch of feed.

The last method I want to mention is what is often referred to as 'the never ending bucket'. Here, they pour some feed into their container, not measuring so that it'll make just enough to fermented feed their flock for a day or two like people do with the other two methods I mentioned above. They fill their bucket with a lot of water, way more than the feed will actually absorb, and ferment it for two to three days (stirring about three times a day). Then they serve out some of the feed to their flock (with a mesh strainer, saving the water in their container). They leave any leftover feed in the bucket, along with the water they strained from the feed they served, and then just top it off with more feed and water. Then the next day they just scoop some feed from their container again and serve it to their flock (because the leftovers from the day before jump started the fermentation process with this batch). Then they just top up the container again and repeat the process for an indefinite amount of time. In this way they have a 'never ending bucket' of fermented feed. Now, I've never heard someone use this method when fermenting quail (game bird) feed, I've only heard of it with chicken feed.

There are lots of other ways to ferment chicken and quail feed, but these are the main methods that I've seen.


So first off, which method do you guys use/recommend? Are they all safe?

If the feed in the second method isn't fully submerged in water is it safe from bad bacteria like mold?

Have any of you used the never ending bucket method?
By always reusing the old feed are you risking passing bad bacteria on to the next batch?

I know some people will only ferment their feed indoors because if the feed is fermenting in for example an outdoor shed it can be exposed to extreme temperatures. Extreme heat can speed up the fermentation process, resulting in it going rancid faster. On the other hand, in freezing temps you can literally turn your feed into a literal ice cube.
Do any of you have experience fermenting chicken and quail feed in an outdoor shed? Does it work well or do you recommend storing it indoors?

Have any of you used the never ending bucket method for quail (game bird) feed? I heard someone say they had kept a batch of chicken feed going for 10+ years!

Many people say they ferment the feed for two to three days and then use it up in one to days (as with the first two methods I mentioned). When they say this are they including those one to two days to serve it in the three days they ferment it? Or do they ferment it for a few days first and then use it up a day or two after it's fermented? Will fermented feed stay fresh a day or two after fermenting it for a few days?

And lastly, can guinea fowl eat fermented game bird feed? I know feed that's been properly fermented is completely safe for (and very beneficial to) chickens and quail by what I've gathered, but I've never heard of feeding guinea fowl fermented feed. Have any of you fed your guinea fowl fermented feed before? Is it safe?

I apologize for this extremely long post, I just really want to get this subject down. We have about 100 birds right now, all very young. We have a ton of chickens, nearly 2 dozen quail, and 3 guinea fowl (that we're raising with some of the chickens). Considering we're caring for so many birds, I think fermenting our bird's feed will be a huge help with cutting their food bills (and raising happier, healthier birds). Thank you so very much for your time!!

 

[rosemarythyme]

I don't have quail or GF and don't know anything about their needs, so answering for just chickens here.

What I do is: I add feed to my jar (I use glass jars so no risk of leeching chemicals from plastic) and then add water to about 1" or so over that (actual amount varies based on temperature, amount of feed, etc - I don't measure, I eyeball everything). I don't keep the feed fully submerged and I aim for thick oatmeal consistency by the end of 24 hrs, when I start serving it. Once I use up most of the available FF (I typically make about 2 to 4 days worth) I backslop by adding new feed and water into whatever's left in the jar, and that helps kick start the next batch. I fully clean out the jar if it needs it, i.e. spillage on the outside or too much accumulation of crust on the inside rim.

Have I had mold - yes, twice, but that was likely due to temperature fluctuations more than anything. In hotter weather I use up FF faster (2 days worth) so less risk of mold.

I do keep my FF inside since I have space for it, with a dedicated sink and storage space for the bowls and such Temperature fluctuations are the hardest thing to adjust for so keeping it inside helps minimize that.

 

[GardenBlooms22]

I don't have quail or GF and don't know anything about their needs, so answering for just chickens here.

What I do is: I add feed to my jar (I use glass jars so no risk of leeching chemicals from plastic) and then add water to about 1" or so over that (actual amount varies based on temperature, amount of feed, etc - I don't measure, I eyeball everything). I don't keep the feed fully submerged and I aim for thick oatmeal consistency by the end of 24 hrs, when I start serving it. Once I use up most of the available FF (I typically make about 2 to 4 days worth) I backslop by adding new feed and water into whatever's left in the jar, and that helps kick start the next batch. I fully clean out the jar if it needs it, i.e. spillage on the outside or too much accumulation of crust on the inside rim.

Have I had mold - yes, twice, but that was likely due to temperature fluctuations more than anything. In hotter weather I use up FF faster (2 days worth) so less risk of mold.

I do keep my FF inside since I have space for it, with a dedicated sink and storage space for the bowls and such Temperature fluctuations are the hardest thing to adjust for so keeping it inside helps minimize that.

Thank you for your response!
I assume you continue to stir it during those 2 to 4 days you serve it after fermentation?
I would probably store it indoors if I use this method.

Approximately how much fermented feed do you feed your chickens everyday? How do you gauge how much dry feed to ferment to feed your flock for a few days?
How much does the feed expand after 24 hours? Many people say their feed nearly doubles (but this also has to do with the type of feed they used), do you find this to be true when you ferment your feed?

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The confusion around (2) - the middle method - is that its been mixed up with "wet mash". I often feed my birds wet mash, which isn't fermented (though can be) its simply crumble stirred with water until it absorbs the liquid, then served as an oatmeal like paste. Helps control waste, seems to beenfit the birds in higher temps.

When I have to be gone for a few days, and my wife is watching the birds, I will prepare several buckets in advance. THAT is how I measure my dry ingredients. One day's worth of dry, one bucket. Obviously, your "bucket" size will vary with your flock size - mason jar, empty coffee can, paint bucket, 2 gallon pail, 5 gallon pain bucket - they are all "bucket".
How long your ferment takes depends on temp but a high temp ferment isn't inherently dangerous. What is important is that the ferment be anaerobic - the dry needs to be under water. If it isn't, there are a lot of things which can also try and colonize your ferment that you don't want in there. No guarantee that they are in your environment, or that they will successfully outcompete the things you do want fermenting your feed - but why risk it? Note that this is exactly opposite what you want in a compost pile.
Many people take some further insurance by innoculating their ferment with a starter. Doesn't matter if its the "mother" from ACV, a bit of live culture yogurt, or a bit of sourdough starter from the fridge. You are introducing a beneficial bacterial culture in hopes that head start prevents potentially unwanted things in the environment from outcompeting. You want lacto-baccilus, which is why yogurt or sourdough are better choices than ACV, sauerkraut or kimchi for kick starting a ferment. Acetic acid ferments are fine, lactic acid ferments are better (honestly, chances are, you will have both going on). Alcohol ferment - what turns wheat into beer and other grains into a malt beverage is NOT what you want.

There's a yeast in many climates which makes a spiderweb like coating on the top of ferments that aren't completely submerged. its called "kahm", perfectly safe, very unattractive, and arguably protects against other things in the air successfully colonizing the surface - but a thin layer of water is better.

Stirring aerates and risks incorporating more things from the environment which you may not want. I am NOT a fan - but its a popular waste of time. I stir once when the water is added, cover to a level I know will remain above the level of the feed when it expands, then snap a lid on it. Further insurance. Then I walk away for a few days.
...and I find that the benefits of all that effort are not measurably greater than simply serving a wet mash of feed from my local mill (even at the quantities I use daily) - most of the savings appears to come from reduced waste, NOT greater bioavailability of certain nutrients. But that of course varies by the nutritional content of your feed, and the ingredients used in its makeup. But if it does ferment, I don't complain - and in FL, that doesn't take long.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

(no apologies for length. You asked - and like so much else with wildly disparate opinions, the answer is "complicated".)

 

[GardenBlooms22]

The confusion around (2) - the middle method - is that its been mixed up with "wet mash". I often feed my birds wet mash, which isn't fermented (though can be) its simply crumble stirred with water until it absorbs the liquid, then served as an oatmeal like paste. Helps control waste, seems to beenfit the birds in higher temps.

When I have to be gone for a few days, and my wife is watching the birds, I will prepare several buckets in advance. THAT is how I measure my dry ingredients. One day's worth of dry, one bucket. Obviously, your "bucket" size will vary with your flock size - mason jar, empty coffee can, paint bucket, 2 gallon pail, 5 gallon pain bucket - they are all "bucket".
How long your ferment takes depends on temp but a high temp ferment isn't inherently dangerous. What is important is that the ferment be anaerobic - the dry needs to be under water. If it isn't, there are a lot of things which can also try and colonize your ferment that you don't want in there. No guarantee that they are in your environment, or that they will successfully outcompete the things you do want fermenting your feed - but why risk it? Note that this is exactly opposite what you want in a compost pile.
Many people take some further insurance by innoculating their ferment with a starter. Doesn't matter if its the "mother" from ACV, a bit of live culture yogurt, or a bit of sourdough starter from the fridge. You are introducing a beneficial bacterial culture in hopes that head start prevents potentially unwanted things in the environment from outcompeting. You want lacto-baccilus, which is why yogurt or sourdough are better choices than ACV, sauerkraut or kimchi for kick starting a ferment. Acetic acid ferments are fine, lactic acid ferments are better (honestly, chances are, you will have both going on). Alcohol ferment - what turns wheat into beer and other grains into a malt beverage is NOT what you want.

There's a yeast in many climates which makes a spiderweb like coating on the top of ferments that aren't completely submerged. its called "kahm", perfectly safe, very unattractive, and arguably protects against other things in the air successfully colonizing the surface - but a thin layer of water is better.

Stirring aerates and risks incorporating more things from the environment which you may not want. I am NOT a fan - but its a popular waste of time. I stir once when the water is added, cover to a level I know will remain above the level of the feed when it expands, then snap a lid on it. Further insurance. Then I walk away for a few days.
...and I find that the benefits of all that effort are not measurably greater than simply serving a wet mash of feed from my local mill (even at the quantities I use daily) - most of the savings appears to come from reduced waste, NOT greater bioavailability of certain nutrients. But that of course varies by the nutritional content of your feed, and the ingredients used in its makeup. But if it does ferment, I don't complain - and in FL, that doesn't take long.

Thank you for such a detailed response!
I've heard a lot of debate on whether or not to use apple cider vinegar to jump start your fermented feed. Many people recommend it, but others say it can cause alcohol in your fermented feed. Yogurt is an interesting idea.

So you don't recommend stirring the feed? I heard people say it can rot if you don't.

When you say 'snap a lid on', do you mean closing it tightly? I heard that if the lid is sealed the fermentation can cause the whole thing to explode! Maybe it wouldn't if you left enough room at the top to contain the pressure?

Thank you very much for your advice!!

 

[GardenBlooms22]

(no apologies for length. You asked - and like so much else with wildly disparate opinions, the answer is "complicated".)

Thank you. I cannot believe how many different opinions and methods there are to ferment chicken feed!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for such a detailed response!
I've heard a lot of debate on whether or not to use apple cider vinegar to jump start your fermented feed. Many people recommend it, but others say it can cause alcohol in your fermented feed. Yogurt is an interesting idea.

So you don't recommend stirring the feed? I heard people say it can rot if you don't.

When you say 'snap a lid on', do you mean closing it tightly? I heard that if the lid is sealed the fermentation can cause the whole thing to explode! Maybe it wouldn't if you left enough room at the top to contain the pressure?

Thank you very much for your advice!!

I push the lid *mostly* on. I actually have a single bucket with a fermentation lock from beer brewing, but I don't use it - as I said, the benefits don't match the effort for me. It will absolutely generate some CO2 as the process goes on.

and with a good stir to start, so things are well hydrated and covered, then adequate time, I don't find a need to stir further.

If I don't stir well to start, or the water content is a bit low, you can end up with partially fermented still more oatmmeal-like feed at the bottom, bellow a thin soup.

Some people ferment whole grains, and due to differences in size and weight, they need to be stirred to ensure the feed doesn't settle out and stratify - particularly if you use the same ferment, day after day. One bucket, one day, you won't have that concern.

 

[GardenBlooms22]

I push the lid *mostly* on. I actually have a single bucket with a fermentation lock from beer brewing, but I don't use it - as I said, the benefits don't match the effort for me. It will absolutely generate some CO2 as the process goes on.

and with a good stir to start, so things are well hydrated and covered, then adequate time, I don't find a need to stir further.

If I don't stir well to start, or the water content is a bit low, you can end up with partially fermented still more oatmmeal-like feed at the bottom, bellow a thin soup.

Some people ferment whole grains, and due to differences in size and weight, they need to be stirred to ensure the feed doesn't settle out and stratify - particularly if you use the same ferment, day after day. One bucket, one day, you won't have that concern.

Makes sense. Thank you for the information!!

 

[GardenBlooms22]

So far I haven't heard anyone mention the never ending bucket method. Well @rosemarythyme kind of did, with adding fresh water and new dry feed to leftover fermented feed. But I haven't heard of anyone doing this with feed that's fully submerged in the water.

I've heard some people say draining the water from the feed you serve (with the fully submerged feed method) makes it lose some of its added nutritional value it gained from being fermented (making it counterproductive)? Not sure if this is true, as I've only heard a couple of people say it.

I'm kind of leaning towards trying the never ending bucket method (method 3), and storing it indoors.

Have any of you tried the never ending bucket method (with the feed fully submerged in the water), and had it spoil? Is it obvious if your fermented feed has gone rancid? I've heard people say that as long as it doesn't smell rotten and it doesn't have any mold it should be OK. Is it possible to be rotten but not look or smell bad? Just want to make sure I don't accidentally make any of our birds sick trying to ferment their feed.

Thank you all for your help!

And still unsure how to handle the guinea. We're raising our (baby) guinea fowl with our youngest (baby) chicks. I want to feed the chicks fermented feed, but I'm not sure if it's safe to feed it to the guinea, as I've never heard of someone doing it. I might just feed the other chicken and our quail fermented feed, and just feed the youngest chicks and guinea dry feed to be safe.