Recipe Check please!

[jetchaos]

Hey, working on a DIY feed recipe (further to my post yesterday about bring gluten-free!). Have used calculators etc where I can and tried to substitute appropriately. If anyone could give me feedback on this mix, I would be very appreciative!

40% buckwheat
20% corn
20% lentils
10% soybeans
7% kelp granules
3% brewer's yeast

Any improvements/supplements I could give to this diet would be much appreciated, as well as criticisms! The calculator I used put that at 16% protein and 4% fat, but numbers mean nothing if the rest of the vitamins etc are missing, and if the hens will even eat it!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I was intrigued by this comment, as I had a different understanding, and it one of the factors that led me to abandon an attempt to make my own feed. What sources are you looking at? This is a case where I would love to be proved wrong and don't want to unfairly discourage people from making homemade feed.

Here, for example, is what I am looking at:

"Conventional poultry diets are typically corn and soybean meal based. Grains are typically low in lysine, and legumes (e.g., soybeans) are low in methionine. With this combination of feed ingredients, methionine is typically the first limiting amino acid."

Source: https://eorganic.org/node/7902

When I did a search for brewers yeast and methionine I saw the following:

. amino acid analysis of dried brewing yeast indicates that yeast should be a source of good-quality protein ( Table 2). Brewing dried yeast contained a high amount of lysine (4.5%), threonine (2.1%), arginine (2.7%), but a low amount of methionine (0.7%). ...

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Amino-acid-composition-of-the-dried-brewing-yeast-used-in-the-diets-of-quails-mg-100-g_tbl2_221972880#:~:text=Brewing dried yeast contained a,(0.7%). ...

Maybe the "low amount of methionine .7%" is still a high level for poultry? Maybe this is where I'm getting it wrong.

I'll also note that I started checking feed tags to see what Met levels they had, one thing I saw over and over again was DL-Methionine as an additive, despite soymeal being the #2 ingredient. At that point, I figured if I was buying bags of soymeal, plus needing an additive like Fertrell's, I might as well keep buying the Flock Raiser.

Morrigan, normally I would offer a really long post of explanation, but I have family visiting, so I'm going to rush this while brewing coffee. Hopefully, in a really memorable way. What you are seeing is two true things, being offered in seamingly contradictory ways. As Mark Twain is claimed to have said, "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."

In the recipe OP offered above, corn offered the lowest contribution to average methionine level, even though roughly 2.1% of Corn's protein is in the form of Methionine, a rather high percentage. (Nutrition tab, third over, scroll down.) Brewer's yeast, otoh, contains a lower % of Methionine in the makeup of its crude protein, (1.5% according to feedipedia), but contributes almost 4x as much to the average protein level in the recipe.

How can that be? Because corn is a relative lot of a little. Sure, a lot of corns preotein is made up of Met, but corn contains very little protein overall (and Feedipedia likely puts its protein number to high). Around 8-5 - 9% as fed (according to feedipedia, many other sources place it sub 8.5% on average now). On the other hand, Brewer's yeast, as fed (that is, corrected for moisture content) is almost 45% crude protein - there's less met per unit, yes, but a lot more units total. Soybean meal works out much the same, even though the Met average on it is only about 1.4% - because its not 1.4% of the total product by weight, its 1.4% of the protein content, by weight, and soy meal is a protein dense source.

Helpful? I hope so, coffee is done, I'm in desperate need.

Also, animals need feeding.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Hey, working on a DIY feed recipe (further to my post yesterday about bring gluten-free!). Have used calculators etc where I can and tried to substitute appropriately. If anyone could give me feedback on this mix, I would be very appreciative!

40% buckwheat
20% corn
20% lentils
10% soybeans
7% kelp granules
3% brewer's yeast

Any improvements/supplements I could give to this diet would be much appreciated, as well as criticisms! The calculator I used put that at 16% protein and 4% fat, but numbers mean nothing if the rest of the vitamins etc are missing, and if the hens will even eat it!

That's a better calculator than most. I get similar numbers using dehulled heat treated soybeans. In the shell, fiber is much higher. Can only speak generally as to the rest, so here goes.

Its adequate as a layer ration in terms of Methionine (your soybeans and yeast are doing all the work here), the Lysine levels are very good, Threonine is also good (lentils, soybeans, yeast). Your Tryp levels are low - Buckwheat doesn't have a lot, corn doesn't have a lot, seaweeds don't tend to have much either. Lentils are at target - not bad, but not so good as to make up for all the buckwheat, corn, and kelp - once again, the soybeans and the yeast are doing all the work.

I know its common to throw kelp meal at things for the vitamins and micro minerals, but you need to watch the salt content. Also, there's a lot of variations in kelp, hopefully your source has a nutritional label?

The brewers yeast should provide good source of B Vitamins (except B12), some other stuff like copper, selenium potassium, the kelp a bunch of (potentially highly variable) minerals. Soybeans are good for several of the Bs, K, lousy source of A, some metals and minerals. Overall, while I don't have MKE numbers for all those ingredients for chicken diets, what I do have suggests you are in the right range, if on the high side. My calculator doesn't go there, but I'm not seeing any good sources of vitamin A or D, not much C.

I'd call that a good start, but not there yet.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

(brown rice is fine too - much higher fiber, of course). Fiber is good for us humans with our modern diets (typically), because of the way we now (mostly) choose to eat. A lot of fiber is NOT good for chickens, but here its in the generally acceptable range, and you a relatively low in some of the most troublesome fibers (like beta-glucans, think "oats"), which can contribute to sticky fecals.

 

[Kiki]

Or, perhaps less Met. is required for laying rations vs. growing chicks or broilers?

I tend to buy all-flock types feeds, so maybe I'm hung up on that.

Apologies to the OP, didn't mean to hijack the thread!

This may or may not help you to understand some things.
Have you seen my Google sheet yet?
Notice the tabs at the bottom of the sheet of the different types of feeds.
Notice line 8 throughout the whole workbook.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Sj3Bt5CUQfX1PlTEhg799sDT-qM/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks for your detailed responses. That all makes sense and is consistent with my general understanding and why synthetic methionine is added to so many chicken feeds.

Sure. I don't know anything someone can't learn in a few weekends of study. Well, some trivia, but most of what I answer here on BYC can be uncovered pretty quickly (and isn't particularly disputed) with just a little bit of research or a good keyword search. It was actualy BYC that led me to most of the research, actually. I only started my own chicken journey a couple years back.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

A quick question - just to check my understanding - an alternative way to increase the methionine intake is to provide animal protein (I assume including fish).
I know many people will have reasons not to do that - but for the rest of us that would help get to the met levels that are so hard with plant protein. Correct?
I think mine get theirs mainly from bugs and worms but I do let them finish up any cat food that the cats don't eat and sometimes give them a meat bone to peck clean. I don't eat that much meat myself so that is a rather rare and much treasured treat!

Yes, as a % of total protein, animal products (meat, fish, insect) tend to have higher Met % than plant products.

BUT!!! Keep in mind that most of the plant products we use are dried, generally to less than 10% total moisture. That 80/20 ground beef is 80% protein (or more), 20% (or less) fat, AS A PERCENTAGE OF DRY WEIGHT. Its still 75% +/- water. Effectively, 15% crude protein.

Most get around that issue by adjusting the 100g/day feed assumption.

 

[Morrigan]

My general sense is that you are going to lacking in some key amino acids, Methionine for sure and possibly some others. The soy, kelp and yeast are helpful, but I doubt they are sufficient. I don't have the knowledge to give you are more precise breakdown, unfortunately.

When I looked into making my own chicken food, I came to the conclusion that I either needed to add a nutritional balancer like Fertrell, or offer some type of animal protein -- meat scraps, fish, etc. on a regular basis.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

That's a better calculator than most. I get similar numbers using dehulled heat treated soybeans. In the shell, fiber is much higher. Can only speak generally as to the rest, so here goes.

Its adequate as a layer ration in terms of Methionine (your soybeans and yeast are doing all the work here), the Lysine levels are very good, Threonine is also good (lentils, soybeans, yeast). Your Tryp levels are low - Buckwheat doesn't have a lot, corn doesn't have a lot, seaweeds don't tend to have much either. Lentils are at target - not bad, but not so good as to make up for all the buckwheat, corn, and kelp - once again, the soybeans and the yeast are doing all the work.

I know its common to throw kelp meal at things for the vitamins and micro minerals, but you need to watch the salt content. Also, there's a lot of variations in kelp, hopefully your source has a nutritional label?

The brewers yeast should provide good source of B Vitamins (except B12), some other stuff like copper, selenium potassium, the kelp a bunch of (potentially highly variable) minerals. Soybeans are good for several of the Bs, K, lousy source of A, some metals and minerals. Overall, while I don't have MKE numbers for all those ingredients for chicken diets, what I do have suggests you are in the right range, if on the high side. My calculator doesn't go there, but I'm not seeing any good sources of vitamin A or D, not much C.

I'd call that a good start, but not there yet.

oh, and suggestions...

You could pull half the lentils and sub in cow peas (black eyed peas, purple hull peas, etc) - your tannins go up a bit (that's why not more than 10%), but in spite of the marginally lower crude protein, the cow peas provide more Methionine and more Tryptophan, pound per pound (not a lot more, but we are nibbling at margins here).

Question, why is corn in there? Not that I have anything against corn, just curious why you chose to include it? Understanding that, I may be able to suggest substitutions.

Same query on why gluten free?

 

[Morrigan]

Its adequate as a layer ration in terms of Methionine (your soybeans and yeast are doing all the work here),

I was intrigued by this comment, as I had a different understanding, and it one of the factors that led me to abandon an attempt to make my own feed. What sources are you looking at? This is a case where I would love to be proved wrong and don't want to unfairly discourage people from making homemade feed.

Here, for example, is what I am looking at:

"Conventional poultry diets are typically corn and soybean meal based. Grains are typically low in lysine, and legumes (e.g., soybeans) are low in methionine. With this combination of feed ingredients, methionine is typically the first limiting amino acid."

Source: https://eorganic.org/node/7902

When I did a search for brewers yeast and methionine I saw the following:

. amino acid analysis of dried brewing yeast indicates that yeast should be a source of good-quality protein ( Table 2). Brewing dried yeast contained a high amount of lysine (4.5%), threonine (2.1%), arginine (2.7%), but a low amount of methionine (0.7%). ...

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...text=Brewing dried yeast contained a,(0.7%). ...

Maybe the "low amount of methionine .7%" is still a high level for poultry? Maybe this is where I'm getting it wrong.

I'll also note that I started checking feed tags to see what Met levels they had, one thing I saw over and over again was DL-Methionine as an additive, despite soymeal being the #2 ingredient. At that point, I figured if I was buying bags of soymeal, plus needing an additive like Fertrell's, I might as well keep buying the Flock Raiser.