Recipe Check please!

[U_Stormcrow]

And the gluten free results from my wife and I having Coeliac disease - not in terms of the eggs etc, but more the handling of the food in the first place. My wife can have quite severe reactions; example being we had to switch out our dog food to a gluten free one, despite the fact we were being careful with handling it etc. It's not something we want even remotely near us!

and that's a good reason.

OK, expense will go up, but you can actually use rice as a sub for corn. Once again, low protein (similar to corn, but a little higher). AA balance is a bit different in ways helpful to you, fat and fiber both come down in beneficial ways, while energy conternt remains similar.

If you can get ahold of soy meal, instead of soybean, that's also a net benefit, and likely cheaper as well

 

[U_Stormcrow]

(brown rice is fine too - much higher fiber, of course). Fiber is good for us humans with our modern diets (typically), because of the way we now (mostly) choose to eat. A lot of fiber is NOT good for chickens, but here its in the generally acceptable range, and you a relatively low in some of the most troublesome fibers (like beta-glucans, think "oats"), which can contribute to sticky fecals.

 

[Kiki]

Or, perhaps less Met. is required for laying rations vs. growing chicks or broilers?

I tend to buy all-flock types feeds, so maybe I'm hung up on that.

Apologies to the OP, didn't mean to hijack the thread!

This may or may not help you to understand some things.
Have you seen my Google sheet yet?
Notice the tabs at the bottom of the sheet of the different types of feeds.
Notice line 8 throughout the whole workbook.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Sj3Bt5CUQfX1PlTEhg799sDT-qM/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I was intrigued by this comment, as I had a different understanding, and it one of the factors that led me to abandon an attempt to make my own feed. What sources are you looking at? This is a case where I would love to be proved wrong and don't want to unfairly discourage people from making homemade feed.

Here, for example, is what I am looking at:

"Conventional poultry diets are typically corn and soybean meal based. Grains are typically low in lysine, and legumes (e.g., soybeans) are low in methionine. With this combination of feed ingredients, methionine is typically the first limiting amino acid."

Source: https://eorganic.org/node/7902

When I did a search for brewers yeast and methionine I saw the following:

. amino acid analysis of dried brewing yeast indicates that yeast should be a source of good-quality protein ( Table 2). Brewing dried yeast contained a high amount of lysine (4.5%), threonine (2.1%), arginine (2.7%), but a low amount of methionine (0.7%). ...

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Amino-acid-composition-of-the-dried-brewing-yeast-used-in-the-diets-of-quails-mg-100-g_tbl2_221972880#:~:text=Brewing dried yeast contained a,(0.7%). ...

Maybe the "low amount of methionine .7%" is still a high level for poultry? Maybe this is where I'm getting it wrong.

I'll also note that I started checking feed tags to see what Met levels they had, one thing I saw over and over again was DL-Methionine as an additive, despite soymeal being the #2 ingredient. At that point, I figured if I was buying bags of soymeal, plus needing an additive like Fertrell's, I might as well keep buying the Flock Raiser.

Morrigan, normally I would offer a really long post of explanation, but I have family visiting, so I'm going to rush this while brewing coffee. Hopefully, in a really memorable way. What you are seeing is two true things, being offered in seamingly contradictory ways. As Mark Twain is claimed to have said, "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."

In the recipe OP offered above, corn offered the lowest contribution to average methionine level, even though roughly 2.1% of Corn's protein is in the form of Methionine, a rather high percentage. (Nutrition tab, third over, scroll down.) Brewer's yeast, otoh, contains a lower % of Methionine in the makeup of its crude protein, (1.5% according to feedipedia), but contributes almost 4x as much to the average protein level in the recipe.

How can that be? Because corn is a relative lot of a little. Sure, a lot of corns preotein is made up of Met, but corn contains very little protein overall (and Feedipedia likely puts its protein number to high). Around 8-5 - 9% as fed (according to feedipedia, many other sources place it sub 8.5% on average now). On the other hand, Brewer's yeast, as fed (that is, corrected for moisture content) is almost 45% crude protein - there's less met per unit, yes, but a lot more units total. Soybean meal works out much the same, even though the Met average on it is only about 1.4% - because its not 1.4% of the total product by weight, its 1.4% of the protein content, by weight, and soy meal is a protein dense source.

Helpful? I hope so, coffee is done, I'm in desperate need.

Also, animals need feeding.

 

[Sally PB]

And the gluten free results from my wife and I having Coeliac disease - not in terms of the eggs etc, but more the handling of the food in the first place. My wife can have quite severe reactions; example being we had to switch out our dog food to a gluten free one, despite the fact we were being careful with handling it etc. It's not something we want even remotely near us!

My sincere sympathies. I have a very MILD, but annoying, reaction to gluten. It's not easy to be GF these days.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and yes, I really need to rebuild my calculator with data from feedtables. But its time I don't have

 

[Morrigan]

Morrigan, normally I would offer a really long post of explanation, but I have family visiting, so I'm going to rush this while brewing coffee. Hopefully, in a really memorable way. What you are seeing is two true things, being offered in seamingly contradictory ways. As Mark Twain is claimed to have said, "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."

In the recipe OP offered above, corn offered the lowest contribution to average methionine level, even though roughly 2.1% of Corn's protein is in the form of Methionine, a rather high percentage. (Nutrition tab, third over, scroll down.) Brewer's yeast, otoh, contains a lower % of Methionine in the makeup of its crude protein, (1.5% according to feedipedia), but contributes almost 4x as much to the average protein level in the recipe.

How can that be? Because corn is a relative lot of a little. Sure, a lot of corns preotein is made up of Met, but corn contains very little protein overall (and Feedipedia likely puts its protein number to high). Around 8-5 - 9% as fed (according to feedipedia, many other sources place it sub 8.5% on average now). On the other hand, Brewer's yeast, as fed (that is, corrected for moisture content) is almost 45% crude protein - there's less met per unit, yes, but a lot more units total. Soybean meal works out much the same, even though the Met average on it is only about 1.4% - because its not 1.4% of the total product by weight, its 1.4% of the protein content, by weight, and soy meal is a protein dense source.

Helpful? I hope so, coffee is done, I'm in desperate need.

Also, animals need feeding.

I think I got it -- even though soy and brewer's yeast have relatively "low" met by total volume, they are so protein dense, that they end up contributing enough met to meet the minimum. And, even the corn is adding a bit.

As to why Purina FR adds supplemental Met. (and Lysine too), I'm guessing they are adding extra both to exceed the minimum (which they do and is one reason I buy it) and perhaps to compensate for low quality batches of corn and soy.

 

[Morrigan]

This may or may not help you to understand some things.
Have you seen my Google sheet yet?
Notice the tabs at the bottom of the sheet of the different types of feeds.
Notice line 8 throughout the whole workbook.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Sj3Bt5CUQfX1PlTEhg799sDT-qM/edit?usp=drivesdk
View attachment 3584982

Very helpful. I can clear see how all flock formulas have higher levels of some amino acids. And, wow, are there a ton of food brand choices out there.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I think I got it -- even though soy and brewer's yeast have relatively "low" met by total volume, they are so protein dense, that they end up contributing enough met to meet the minimum. And, even the corn is adding a bit.

As to why Purina FR adds supplemental Met. (and Lysine too), I'm guessing they are adding extra both to exceed the minimum (which they do and is one reason I buy it) and perhaps to compensate for low quality batches of corn and soy.

Actually, Met is very hard to get in plants, period. If you build to a 100g diet, you want a daily met level of at least 0.3% (more, much more, depending on age, breed, purpose) 100g of corn provides less than 0.2% - essentially, to meet Met levels w/ corn, you'd have to eat another 50% more - which has problems of its own. Most of the grains have Met levels (averages of about 0.2 - 0.25%) - once again, you can't met the desired Met levels w/i a 100g ration. Adding synthetic Met and Lys allows Purina and all the others to meet desired Met levels without either a lot of "waste" protein (that is, other excess amino acids the birds just poop out) and with less expensive ingredients overall.

To try and meet targets w/o using animal sources means a lot of certain legumes (like soy), which have their own problems and are costly. Using meals, an industrial by-product, like soy meal, alfalfa meal, etc both addresses some of the problems inherent in the ingredient and the cost issues. Even so, it can be difficult - which is why feeds carrying the "Organic" label can contain synthetic Met and Lys - because its that critical and there are no other practical alternatives.

Even so, total additions of synthetic Met in feed are limited by US law - its a help, not a fix.

 

[Morrigan]

To try and meet targets w/o using animal sources means a lot of certain legumes (like soy), which have their own problems and are costly.

Thanks for your detailed responses. That all makes sense and is consistent with my general understanding and why synthetic methionine is added to so many chicken feeds.

I'm guessing that it's brewers yeast is what makes the difference in pushing the OP receipt to the minimum for methionine. Although it's not a cheap product -- it is pretty doable, especially at 3% of totally feed.

@jetchaos --thanks for starting this thread, I'd be interested in what final formulation you settle on and how manageable you find the whole process in terms of sourcing and assembling.