Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[Cedarknob]

No Not any good Cornish at our local actions, but I have gotten some good ones at some national show's from some good breeders. Whites and good ones are just so tough to get a hold of, it can be very frustrating sometime, and even more so when we hatch a ton of chicks and only a few are worth taking the time to grow out. I have raised several different breeds over the years and the LF Cornish have proven to be the toughest test of my pateints. Still hanging in there though.

Everybody can go around and around and get all caught up in genetics and reccesive this and Dominant that and so on and so on, but if you don't know much about your birds, where they come from for sure, and without a doubt their lineage, you won't ever be sure, hence all the issues with color and what folks think they should be getting as opposed to what pop's out of the egg. If you have bred your own stock over a few generations then you can dang skippy be sure, unless your crossing or not paying attention. I have seen this topic of color and genetics get turned upside down and folks get so caught up in the formulations of what's supposed to be what, that if they actually did hatch something they couldn't recognize it if it dropped on their head. select pairs/trios........ breed..... hatch...... look ..... learn...... and pay attention......... that's what makes good breeding birds......... not obsessing of formula's if your not sure what the blood carries in the first place.

Just trying to add some grounded insight instead of speckulation.

I edited out my reply because I it was made in frustration and insulting.

 

[oshun55555]

Al your my kind of breeder, you eyeball it, you can have a degree in genetics and still not get it rigth, its passion and observation that will get you the results you want ... and as you said pay attention.

 

[al6517]

I always have the upmost respect for the for the newest of cornish guy's with a trio of birds and a few months of knowledge to lead the rest of us who obviously don't have a clue what were doing, when it comes to cornish. perhaps when you can place 2 of the top 5 birds in the Cornish nationals you can teach the rest of us what we pro's don't know about Cornish. Your obviously the consumate expert in the field of fine Cornish with your huge vast flock of show birds and we all hope you can lead those of us with only a few hundred Cornish just how to breed to your standards.

I am done here.................. I will leave the rest of you to the board expert.............. good luck to you all.

 

[al6517]

Al your my kind of breeder, you eyeball it, you can have a degree in genetics and still not get it rigth, its passion and observation that will get you the results you want ... and as you said pay attention.

Perhaps Cedar can guide the rest of us in book smarts and fact checking, that seems to be the way to go according to the expert. Does anybody know where we can buy his book to raising quality LF Cornish ??

 

[Cedarknob]

Quote:
I believe it would help if I did have the knowledge to understand why my crosses turned out the color that they did, whether it came from book learning or better yet, experience. Obviously I do not, so am guessing, breeding to test a theory/guess, and have been asking for help from those that do have the experience or expertise. I was hoping to see some pictures of other's White Cornish chicks because I've never seen one in my life until this hatch.
I'm ignorant, and asking some questions to see if I can replace that with some knowledge, and a breeder has helped a bit by PM. If you were willing and able to offer me something that helped I would have said thanks. It may just be me reading your posts wrong, but what I read is you saying "I have the best, because I know what I'm doing, and the rest of you don't." No matter my opinion on your ability as a breeder or the quality of your Cornish, your mocking has neither helped me nor harmed me. Thanks for posting.

 

[galanie]

I apologize for making the assumption that these birds you were boasting about last year were bought at an auction, but seriously doubt that they came from a national show. 

This is insulting. You obviously overlooked the pictures following the darks you posted featuring a white bird he'd hatched the year before. I suppose Al hurt your feelings and now you're looking into his history the best you can in order to discredit him. Yes, he took 2 of the 5 top places in the Cornish Nationals earlier this year and it wasn't with some birds he lucked up on somewhere. It was those he bred and hatched himself.

Please listen to Al and dont' get your feelings hurt. He's just telling it like it is, that's his style. He's trying to help you. He knows his stuff. Observe, he says. Sometimes knowing the why of something isn't as important as knowing the result. Unless you know the ancestry of the bird back more than a few generations, you know next to nothing about it's genetics. This is what Al is saying.

 

[chickened]

There are basically 2 ways to breed quality DC, hatch several thousand eggs and eventually you will get a winner or study your birds intently with the SOP in your hand and select the few best and hatch them. It is really not that difficult if you study the SOP of that breed.

Having someone experienced is helpful and invaluable and can save you a lot of trial and error but if that person helping you has a communication problem or attitude hangup you are wasting your time with them. If they just are here to brag I have little need of those folks.

As for show winners you have to consider the amount of competition. If you are the only one at the show with non hatchery DC you are sure to win.

 

[Cedarknob]

Quote: You're correct, it is insulting. Al, you have my apology.

Galanie, none of us knows for sure the genetics behind the birds we buy. We may find a breeder that is honest enough to tell us everything they have bred into the bird, or encountered in past generations, but that is very rare. Many have introduced unwanted characteristics to their flock in an attempt to introduce a wanted one. [Using a trash bird trying to get pearl eyes back in the Cornish breed might be an example] If you do find an individual willing to disclose it all, they still do not know what was done to the line earlier. While you can never figure it all out, I think good breeders do attempt to breed towards eliminating the undesirable traits carried in their flock, this fact seems pretty elementary to me. I'm observing several down colors in my chicks, phenotypes if you prefer, that if I can connect to a genotype might help me to eliminate some unwanted traits. My experience is not great, but many good colored adults in my recessive whites of another breed were grey colored as day olds, some were silvery white. I'm getting some chicks like that but also many that can't be recessive white yet look like it to me with my limited experience. Al told me WC are "dominant white", which contradicts what I'm being told by others, but then tells me I need to pay attention to what I'm hatching, that knowledge of recessives and dominates means nothing. My feelings are not hurt, I'm frustrated. If I had been able to locate and/or afford better White Cornish, maybe I could throw them in a pen, hatch some chicks, and go show them successfully if I so desired. The truth is that the whites have declined in both numbers and quality to the point where they seldom beat patterned Cornish in stiff company, and if I haul a WC to a show I hope to have one that is built as well as the colored varieties.

 

[galanie]

You're correct, it is insulting.  Al, you have my apology.  

Galanie, none of us knows for sure the genetics behind the birds we buy. We may find a breeder that is honest enough to tell us everything they have bred into the bird, or encountered in past generations, but that is very rare. Many have introduced unwanted characteristics to their flock in an attempt to introduce a wanted one. [Using a trash bird trying to get pearl eyes back in the Cornish breed might be an example]  If you do find an individual willing to disclose it all, they still do not know what was done to the line earlier. While you can never figure it all out, I think good breeders do attempt to breed towards eliminating the undesirable traits carried in their flock, this fact seems pretty elementary to me.  I'm observing several down colors in my chicks, phenotypes if you prefer, that if I can connect to a genotype might help me to eliminate some unwanted traits. My experience is not great, but many good colored adults in my recessive whites of another breed were grey colored as day olds, some were silvery white. I'm getting some chicks like that but also many that can't be recessive white yet look like it to me with my limited experience. Al told me WC are "dominant white", which contradicts what I'm being told by others, but then tells me I need to pay attention to what I'm hatching, that knowledge of recessives and dominates means nothing. My feelings are not hurt, I'm frustrated. If I had been able to locate and/or afford better White Cornish, maybe I could throw them in a pen, hatch some chicks, and go show them successfully if I so desired. The truth is that the whites have declined in both numbers and quality to the point where they seldom beat patterned Cornish in stiff company,  and if I haul a WC to a show I hope to have one that is built as well as the colored varieties.           

I think the point is, that when you have unknown genetics in a bird, hatch, hatch, hatch, and then hatch some more. What comes out will be what went in. If they're consistently throwing something oddball, then there's an oddball gene and you don't want to breed that bird. I believe that's what is meant, at least in part, by "Observe." You just can't get an apple with a banana tree.

If your bird throws good colors mostly but something oddball sometimes, then there's something oddball in there that can be bred out.

PS - I don't think Al cares whether it's "dominant white" or "recessive white." Whichever it is, he knows how to get it.

 

[kfacres]

I always have the upmost respect for the for the newest of cornish guy's with a trio of birds and a few months of knowledge to lead the rest of us who obviously don't have a clue what were doing, when it comes to cornish. perhaps when you can place 2 of the top 5 birds in the Cornish nationals you can teach the rest of us what we pro's don't know about Cornish. Your obviously the consumate expert in the field of fine Cornish with your huge vast flock of show birds and we all hope you can lead those of us with only a few hundred Cornish just how to breed to your standards.

I am done here.................. I will leave the rest of you to the board expert.............. good luck to you all.

poor al.. can dish out plenty of hatrid in typing and disrespect-- but can't take any back in return...

I do think it's interesting that the new breeder is bashed in this paragraph-- who's to say the newby- won't be the next great one? Why continually run them down and deter them from joining the breed further?= is the question that gets presented yet AGAIN.


I think Cedarknob's method of logic-- is interesting, but I am on to them.