Reforming an aggressive rooster (project)

[centrarchid]

I think it's also counterproductive to the entire concept of domestication of animals. The whole point of domesticating something is to breed "domestic" traits into it, like not attacking humans. Breeding an aggressive rooster is, I think, a step backwards.

There was a study done, in Russia I think, on domesticating foxes over a long period of time. They basically only bred the friendly ones, and now they're all friendly, I think that showed genetics can play a large part in behavior.

It's a combination of genetics and husbandry. I stated before and will again. I can make just about any rooster a man-fighter. Genetics can impact how much effort I must invest.

 

[Shadrach]

The strangest thing of all to me is we are talking about a 5 kilo max bird more often than not v a human at least 10x that bodyweight. When someone brings me a 50 kilo rooster I might be worried.

 

[LaurenRitz]

One interesting thing I'm running into in my research is the varying methods.

Some say to prove to the rooster that you are above him in the pecking order. Others say prove that you're not a chicken (i.e., not in the pecking order).

Both of these tactics seem to work for some people and some chickens. What the successful training seems to have in common is that they don't try to keep the rooster from doing his job. They don't try to keep him from being a chicken and doing chicken things.

Quite apart from the fact that I don't want to kill anything unnecessarily, the rooster is doing what I want him to do. He is protective of his ladies, handles predators perfectly, lets the pullets eat first, and he's gentle with them.

I have already been able to change his behavior, to a point, by changing how I behave around him, which tells me that my instincts were right and it's my behavior that is triggering some of this.

As for the aggression, his brothers show no aggression toward humans. He was lowest in the pecking order with three other roosters, which would suggest to me that he learned to fight out of self defense.

I may not be able to help him. That is very possible. But I am going to try.

 

[SourRoses]

That's the plan, but if I am not paying attention I instinctively react physically.

I think you need to thank this part of your mind and respect its wisdom, hard earned from thousands of years of human breeding to not die too quickly.
I say this, in part, because I've long noticed people dismissing those instincts in themselves as if they were foolishness or useless or meant to be overcome.

Nurture vs Nature is always the big question.
If an animal was abused... gentleness, patience, and consistency are the solution. I apprenticed with a natural horsemanship trainer working with abused horses, and my own horse had been abused, so I have a mentality of approaching animals softly. I'm versed in learning theory.
Yet I would not take this approach with roosters. Because cockerels will get like this regardless of how they are treated, unless they have a particularly docile personality (which is what everyone should be breeding for).
Think about the flock instinct - several hens to one rooster. Yet an even ratio of female and male chicks hatch out. The males are meant to fight for their place.
What we want from chickens is different from what nature wants. So, we have to be more diligent in our selection.
I tell you, other people or your own expectations can make you feel like you're doing something wrong when the other is not cooperating... but you can't force self-control on another living being. You can't make him smart enough to realize his food source should not be killed for being in his space.
I've raised enough roos now that I can definitely say, you raise them the same and out of a batch of 20 cockerels, odds are one will be nicer. Smarter. Out of a hundred you can get one truly special.

The terms of survival have changed.
This is the test:
Can you get along with humans?

Anecdote:
My favorite roo, Clifford, we have done nothing special with. No convincing him that we are nice humans, and I never defer to him while walking around or avoid paying attention to my hens in his presence. And he does have presence, he's huge!
Yesterday he was covered in blood. Not his.
A nasty feral rooster came by and got its hiney kicked. At one point, it thought it could hide in the bushes, and Clifford is too big to get him out. So, my mom used a stick to thrash the bushes and get the intruder out... then she wound up with roosters fighting at her feet. At no point did Clifford see mom as an enemy, even as the intruder fled and Clifford's blood was still up. He's still a bit stressed over it all, but we don't have to watch our backs around him.
And I'm not just bragging on him, because he's not the only one. There are lots of friendly roosters out there.

This is why a lot of us get a bit... insistent about the fate of mean roos. Because we've experienced enough of both to learn the hard lesson and wish to save others the trouble.

 

[centrarchid]

I think you need to thank this part of your mind and respect its wisdom, hard earned from thousands of years of human breeding to not die too quickly.
I say this, in part, because I've long noticed people dismissing those instincts in themselves as if they were foolishness or useless or meant to be overcome.

Nurture vs Nature is always the big question.
If an animal was abused... gentleness, patience, and consistency are the solution. I apprenticed with a natural horsemanship trainer working with abused horses, and my own horse had been abused, so I have a mentality of approaching animals softly. I'm versed in learning theory.
Yet I would not take this approach with roosters. Because cockerels will get like this regardless of how they are treated, unless they have a particularly docile personality (which is what everyone should be breeding for).
Think about the flock instinct - several hens to one rooster. Yet an even ratio of female and male chicks hatch out. The males are meant to fight for their place.
What we want from chickens is different from what nature wants. So, we have to be more diligent in our selection.
I tell you, other people or your own expectations can make you feel like you're doing something wrong when the other is not cooperating... but you can't force self-control on another living being. You can't make him smart enough to realize his food source should not be killed for being in his space.
I've raised enough roos now that I can definitely say, you raise them the same and out of a batch of 20 cockerels, odds are one will be nicer. Smarter. Out of a hundred you can get one truly special.

The terms of survival have changed.
This is the test:
Can you get along with humans?

Anecdote:
My favorite roo, Clifford, we have done nothing special with. No convincing him that we are nice humans, and I never defer to him while walking around or avoid paying attention to my hens in his presence. And he does have presence, he's huge!
Yesterday he was covered in blood. Not his.
A nasty feral rooster came by and got its hiney kicked. At one point, it thought it could hide in the bushes, and Clifford is too big to get him out. So, my mom used a stick to thrash the bushes and get the intruder out... then she wound up with roosters fighting at her feet. At no point did Clifford see mom as an enemy, even as the intruder fled and Clifford's blood was still up. He's still a bit stressed over it all, but we don't have to watch our backs around him.
And I'm not just bragging on him, because he's not the only one. There are lots of friendly roosters out there.

This is why a lot of us get a bit... insistent about the fate of mean roos. Because we've experienced enough of both to learn the hard lesson and wish to save others the trouble.

It does not take abuse to get them to be mean. It can be as simple as a miss match in behaviors between chicken and human.

 

[LaurenRitz]

It does not take abuse to get them to be mean. It can be as simple as a miss match in behaviors between chicken and human.

Which is what I am trying to address at the moment. If I can eliminate my own odd-by-chicken-standards behavior I can start working on what might be left.

 

[Shadrach]

Some say to prove to the rooster that you are above him in the pecking order.

This is likely to go wrong because roosters are not in the pecking order and niether should you be.

He is protective of his ladies, handles predators perfectly, lets the pullets eat first, and he's gentle with them.

That's all one should ask from a rooster.

I have already been able to change his behavior, to a point, by changing how I behave around him, which tells me that my instincts were right and it's my behavior that is triggering some of this.

If I may ask, what changes have you made to your behaviour and what were the results?

As for the aggression, his brothers show no aggression toward humans. He was lowest in the pecking order with three other roosters, which would suggest to me that he learned to fight out of self defense.

This might bang a bit of a hole in the aggressive gene arguement.
It's interesting that the few who have multi generational groups don't report aggressive fathers producing aggressive sons.

Closed fist treat feeding.

 

[LaurenRitz]

If I may ask, what changes have you made to your behaviour and what were the results?

Based on some of what I've read, I stopped facing him directly when standing still. If he turns to face me I turn slightly away. When I do this he usually goes back to eating or watching.

I am trying to stop hesitating before I cross through the flock, as this seems to increase both alertness and aggression. The problem there is that I am female and seem to be hardwired (for obvious reasons) to watch for small things around my feet and step around them. I wonder if he thinks I am getting ready to kick the pullets when I pause?

Another thing I am testing is whether the sound of my voice makes a difference. I announce before I step into the coop, talk to them as I approach. I have noticed that he seems to hesitate if I am talking.

Means nothing at this stage, but this morning he attacked me. I started to kick him away, remembered, and pulled the kick so it was more of a nudge. He fluttered and puffed up, ready to charge again. I told him sternly that he knows better than that, and walked out of the coop.

This might bang a bit of a hole in the aggressive gene arguement.
It's interesting that the few who have multi generational groups don't report aggressive fathers producing aggressive sons.

I hope that some day I can have one of those groups and actually get to see it.

Closed fist treat feeding.
View attachment 3441010

What is the significance of closed fist feeding?

 

[centrarchid]

What is the significance of closed fist feeding?

When I do it, their pecking is more focused on feed. With open hands and excited bird, pecks can hit hand causing me to drop feed. Birds like that so try to make it happen wit more aggressive pecks.

 

[LaurenRitz]

When I do it, their pecking is more focused on feed. With open hands and excited bird, pecks can hit hand causing me to drop feed. Birds like that so try to make it happen wit more aggressive pecks.

Makes perfect sense. I'm seeing that with the chicks I am raising for my sister. They know where food comes from, and bumping my hand might make me drop some.