Rooster drama and selection - what should I do?

[NatJ]

What proportion of roosters should I expect will need to be culled?

I can read this two ways:

"What proportion of [the current cockerels] should I expect will need to be culled [to work with my current number of hens]?" That would be a question about the current situation.

"What proportion of [a batch of cockerels that I buy in future] should I expect will need to be culled [because they are unsuitable for one reason or another]?" That would be a question about planning for the future, to know how many male chicks to buy if you want a good chance of finding one that works.

I don't have anything helpful to suggest either way, just got stuck wondering which question you were actually trying to ask. (I initially read it the second way, but then several people answered it the first way, and now I don't know which one it was supposed to be.)

 

[SnackMeat]

(disclaimer: I am a noob. I have only done one season, so a lot of what follows is how I would have done it if I had to start over.)


Depending on if you want to carry chicks through the autumn and winter, you can also run two test batches.

1. Are there any non favorites the wry tail doesn't breed? If so, pen those off. If he loves on everyone, then pen the hens separately from any roosters for 3 weeks.

2. Artificially inseminate from shy rooster and asshole rooster. You should be able to prove fertile eggs within 3 days.

Having a younger group growing up at the same time as you are evaluating the shy rooster, can help take the pressure off of you because sometimes the answer is "D. None of the above."

While I largely agree about bad temperment not being bred, it doesn't necessarily seem to be bad temperment in your case, just hormones. And even then, it is interesting reading people's experiences tracing further generations of one of their earliest roosters-- whether that first rooster was an asshole who had kind Cockerel offspring, or was the golden ideal rooster who had asshole offspring. It seems like sometimes, temperment issues really do skip generations. So if one has the look you want, I would say it's worth test batching them.

3. Cull the one hurting the hens. Keep the shy one for now but possibly cull. Keep wry tail to mind the flock and raise up babies and hopefully train up a better replacement.


You can still pursue your friend's genetic stock in the spring but you'll still face aging them up and evaluating. Or, by spring you could have cockerels you are already evaluating.


Potential downsides:


1. Spring hatches seem to have hardier stock from what I have read (at least with ducks but I think chickens as well.) however, you should still have good stock so long as you pay attention to good nutrition for the hens before egg collection, and vitamin d3, and possibly grow lights.

There was a study I read (important note: about using grow lights on incubating eggs, not grow lights on hens beforehand though I have read that can be a good way to get some eggs in the winter if you pay attention to downsides) talking about utilizing grow lights (both white and red and separately, and none for control) and while the results had better outcomes for chicks, I think by weight, after two weeks pretty much all the groups were equal or close to it.

Purists could say that spring eggs are the best and they are not wrong, but assuming you're hatching more than a couple eggs, it is probably a quantity over quality thing and eventually who survives is equal across the board whether they were a spring egg or not.




2. People shifting into the "quiet" season of autumn and winter may not have the space, budget (since less foraging, if any foraging depending on your area,) or desire to handle chicks.


Let's see... It's mid Sept. Egg collection could start Oct 7-10 onward. If you don't have enough sunlight you can use grow lights on your chickens (as far as I understand it)for a short time period. Let's say you collect til Oct 20th, hatch November 11th.

That means by March 11th you would have cockerels you've probably already started evaluating and culling. Which means that your friend's stock will probably be starting to be born and by mid summer you have 8 month old cockerels and your friend has 4 month old cockerels to look at.


I know you said the thing about feeling bad about having rooster meat, but you only have 2 left (shy boy and horny attacker.) Unless you have a lot more in the freezer, it can also make meat sense to spread out Cockerel meat through later winter/early spring. I don't know how it will be about your group as I am sure it changes,but there were some at the 2-2.5 month mark that were "I am absolutely NOT dealing with that any longer" compared to chiller/gentler cockerels. Soup is also better in winter if you're in a place that has cold winters.


The upside can also be pullets for sale or trade March who will likely be in demand because you have gotten a jump versus those selling chicks. It doesn't make financial sense though (if it was just to sell) because of having to feed 100% overwinter.

But it can be worthwhile of you have a breeder program in mind you are playing with (or live in a very temperate place.) this way you further your goals and have a likely automatic buying base in spring to offload those who didn't make the cut for you but are still good for other reasons. Essentially, people subsidizing your hobby project.

It can also make placing the cockerels who don't meet your criteria but are still good Bois a lot easier. I've only done one season but until June-ish, I was able to sell or get good trade on cockerels who had characteristics I knew someone locally was looking for. By July, there was more begging involved and giving away for free because the genetics appeared to be good but I just couldn't keep them. By August? Yeah. No. May as well soup pot them for yourself because that is most likely what anyone else will be doing as everyone is trying to offload cockerels.


Edit: the other upside is biosecurity and also Murphy's law. No matter how careful your friend is, bringing new birds in is always a risk. And I would even point out that the window for artificial insemination is 30 minutes so if your friend is local you don't even have to use shy boy and horny attacker as donors.

And, something may happen to your friend's flock or to your flock. If you have the space/time/money/energy, it can be good to diversify especially because that would put you ahead in early spring when others are just starting. But I can 100% understand wanting to not deal with chicks in the winter.

 

[LaFleche]

I spent alot of time in the run yesterday, and noticed the shy one being rough with the girls and not sharing treats. He’s shy of me and the other roosters, so I think I was wrong about him.

I had all the Rooster separated once they started maturing, and only recently have blended them in two at a time. I should have done this one at a time, using the best specimen to see if hes a gentleman.

I’ll keep wry tail as flock protecter until I find a better specimen next year. He shares food and the hens seem to want to be near him.

For behavioural testing it is better to only introduce one at the time for at least 2-3 weeks so he will be able to develop his true potential with the females and not be influenced by the other male's presence.

And you can always purchase some hatching eggs of the desired breed and let your then hens raise and educate the future flock master themselves.

Being raised by older hens will result in more respectful cockerels and improve their overall social skills.

 

[GreenHaven]

I can read this two ways:

"What proportion of [the current cockerels] should I expect will need to be culled [to work with my current number of hens]?" That would be a question about the current situation.

"What proportion of [a batch of cockerels that I buy in future] should I expect will need to be culled [because they are unsuitable for one reason or another]?" That would be a question about planning for the future, to know how many male chicks to buy if you want a good chance of finding one that works.

I don't have anything helpful to suggest either way, just got stuck wondering which question you were actually trying to ask. (I initially read it the second way, but then several people answered it the first way, and now I don't know which one it was supposed to be.)

I actually meant it the second way. Since I’m starting over - I sure don’t want to mess it up again. From what Ridgerunner said - she starts with 20 and ends up with two or 3 serious candidates. So I guess if I’m doing hatching eggs - I’ll need 2 dozen.

For behavioural testing it is better to only introduce one at the time for at least 2-3 weeks so he will be able to develop his true potential with the females and not be influenced by the other male's presence.

And you can always purchase some hatching eggs of the desired breed and let your then hens raise and educate the future flock master themselves.

Being raised by older hens will result in more respectful cockerels and improve their overall social skills.

Yes! Totally agree! That is my overall plan going forward. I had two broodies co-parent four chicks this summer and it is so awesome to watch them. The chicks didn’t make it to adulthood however. They disappeared on by one and I am guessing it had to be predation but I am a little stumped by what. No feathers, no bodies. They got to 4 weeks and this started. I tried to confine the hens for safety at the beginning but they totally flipped out so I left them with the flock. I’m thinking I need to revise how I implement this for next year.

 

[NatJ]

I actually meant it the second way. Since I’m starting over - I sure don’t want to mess it up again. From what Ridgerunner said - she starts with 20 and ends up with two or 3 serious candidates. So I guess if I’m doing hatching eggs - I’ll need 2 dozen.

Got it!

Yes, if you are able to raise a large number, and are able to evaluate them and remove the ones that don't work out, you do have a better chance of finding a good one. (Because the best of 20 is probably better than the best of 4, but even the best of 4 is likely to be better than starting with just one cockerel and deciding to use him anyway.)

You do not have to raise them all to the same age before you start evaluating. You can spot some kinds of SOP-related problems when they are younger (like wry tail), and not bother to evaluate temperament on those birds. It can help if you move the culls to a different pen until you are ready to eat or rehome them. That makes it easier to see the temperament and other traits of the ones that are left, that might be good enough.

 

[GreenHaven]

Got it!

Yes, if you are able to raise a large number, and are able to evaluate them and remove the ones that don't work out, you do have a better chance of finding a good one. (Because the best of 20 is probably better than the best of 4, but even the best of 4 is likely to be better than starting with just one cockerel and deciding to use him anyway.)

You do not have to raise them all to the same age before you start evaluating. You can spot some kinds of SOP-related problems when they are younger (like wry tail), and not bother to evaluate temperament on those birds. It can help if you move the culls to a different pen until you are ready to eat or rehome them. That makes it easier to see the temperament and other traits of the ones that are left, that might be good enough.

(disclaimer: I am a noob. I have only done one season, so a lot of what follows is how I would have done it if I had to start over.)


Depending on if you want to carry chicks through the autumn and winter, you can also run two test batches.

1. Are there any non favorites the wry tail doesn't breed? If so, pen those off. If he loves on everyone, then pen the hens separately from any roosters for 3 weeks.

2. Artificially inseminate from shy rooster and asshole rooster. You should be able to prove fertile eggs within 3 days.

Having a younger group growing up at the same time as you are evaluating the shy rooster, can help take the pressure off of you because sometimes the answer is "D. None of the above."

While I largely agree about bad temperment not being bred, it doesn't necessarily seem to be bad temperment in your case, just hormones. And even then, it is interesting reading people's experiences tracing further generations of one of their earliest roosters-- whether that first rooster was an asshole who had kind Cockerel offspring, or was the golden ideal rooster who had asshole offspring. It seems like sometimes, temperment issues really do skip generations. So if one has the look you want, I would say it's worth test batching them.

3. Cull the one hurting the hens. Keep the shy one for now but possibly cull. Keep wry tail to mind the flock and raise up babies and hopefully train up a better replacement.


You can still pursue your friend's genetic stock in the spring but you'll still face aging them up and evaluating. Or, by spring you could have cockerels you are already evaluating.


Potential downsides:


1. Spring hatches seem to have hardier stock from what I have read (at least with ducks but I think chickens as well.) however, you should still have good stock so long as you pay attention to good nutrition for the hens before egg collection, and vitamin d3, and possibly grow lights.

There was a study I read (important note: about using grow lights on incubating eggs, not grow lights on hens beforehand though I have read that can be a good way to get some eggs in the winter if you pay attention to downsides) talking about utilizing grow lights (both white and red and separately, and none for control) and while the results had better outcomes for chicks, I think by weight, after two weeks pretty much all the groups were equal or close to it.

Purists could say that spring eggs are the best and they are not wrong, but assuming you're hatching more than a couple eggs, it is probably a quantity over quality thing and eventually who survives is equal across the board whether they were a spring egg or not.




2. People shifting into the "quiet" season of autumn and winter may not have the space, budget (since less foraging, if any foraging depending on your area,) or desire to handle chicks.


Let's see... It's mid Sept. Egg collection could start Oct 7-10 onward. If you don't have enough sunlight you can use grow lights on your chickens (as far as I understand it)for a short time period. Let's say you collect til Oct 20th, hatch November 11th.

That means by March 11th you would have cockerels you've probably already started evaluating and culling. Which means that your friend's stock will probably be starting to be born and by mid summer you have 8 month old cockerels and your friend has 4 month old cockerels to look at.


I know you said the thing about feeling bad about having rooster meat, but you only have 2 left (shy boy and horny attacker.) Unless you have a lot more in the freezer, it can also make meat sense to spread out Cockerel meat through later winter/early spring. I don't know how it will be about your group as I am sure it changes,but there were some at the 2-2.5 month mark that were "I am absolutely NOT dealing with that any longer" compared to chiller/gentler cockerels. Soup is also better in winter if you're in a place that has cold winters.


The upside can also be pullets for sale or trade March who will likely be in demand because you have gotten a jump versus those selling chicks. It doesn't make financial sense though (if it was just to sell) because of having to feed 100% overwinter.

But it can be worthwhile of you have a breeder program in mind you are playing with (or live in a very temperate place.) this way you further your goals and have a likely automatic buying base in spring to offload those who didn't make the cut for you but are still good for other reasons. Essentially, people subsidizing your hobby project.

It can also make placing the cockerels who don't meet your criteria but are still good Bois a lot easier. I've only done one season but until June-ish, I was able to sell or get good trade on cockerels who had characteristics I knew someone locally was looking for. By July, there was more begging involved and giving away for free because the genetics appeared to be good but I just couldn't keep them. By August? Yeah. No. May as well soup pot them for yourself because that is most likely what anyone else will be doing as everyone is trying to offload cockerels.


Edit: the other upside is biosecurity and also Murphy's law. No matter how careful your friend is, bringing new birds in is always a risk. And I would even point out that the window for artificial insemination is 30 minutes so if your friend is local you don't even have to use shy boy and horny attacker as donors.

And, something may happen to your friend's flock or to your flock. If you have the space/time/money/energy, it can be good to diversify especially because that would put you ahead in early spring when others are just starting. But I can 100% understand wanting to not deal with chicks in the winter.

Well thats a lot of information. The stock i was going to bring in would be in the form of hatching eggs - from a source that breeds to the SOP. This way i am hoping to start with better genetics than i currently have.
Biosecurity is important and hatching eggs solve that dilemma, somewhat. I dont want to try to raise chicks in the winter here - Im in the PNW and thers alot of rain. Not too cold - but we can go below freezing for periods of time. My hens tromp through puddles like its fun - I think they get used to it.
I have removed all the roosters except for the wry tail, and they are scheduled for harvest on Friday. I’m pretty much over them. The better specimen is much too agressive to the hens (tore her scalp), and the shy one is a slow grower.

 

[SnackMeat]

All's well that ends well then

I'm glad Wry Tail keeps getting to take care of the flock.

Later on, were you planning on having a broody hen manage the eggs? Or going the incubator route?

 

[GreenHaven]

Got it!

Yes, if you are able to raise a large number, and are able to evaluate them and remove the ones that don't work out, you do have a better chance of finding a good one. (Because the best of 20 is probably better than the best of 4, but even the best of 4 is likely to be better than starting with just one cockerel and deciding to use him anyway.)

You do not have to raise them all to the same age before you start evaluating. You can spot some kinds of SOP-related problems when they are younger (like wry tail), and not bother to evaluate temperament on those birds. It can help if you move the culls to a different pen until you are ready to eat or rehome them. That makes it easier to see the temperament and other traits of the ones that are left, that might be good enough.

Good points! Next year I will try to start with hatching eggs, under broodies if possibe, or incubation if necessary. I am planning to remove the roosters once they are obvious or creating trouble. Then i suppose i can separate the clear cut culls as i figure it out. And when Ive whittled it down, ill trial them individually with the hens. Although, if they are raised by a broody - this is less clear cut. I still have to figure the broody situation out.

 

[GreenHaven]

All's well that ends well then

I'm glad Wry Tail keeps getting to take care of the flock.

Later on, were you planning on having a broody hen manage the eggs? Or going the incubator route?

Debating. Tested this out recently and all seemed well until weeks 4-5 when the chicks dissappeared. We had only 3 but ive not figured out what happened. They in with my small dorking flock.