Run questions

[Davaroo]

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Wow... That'd be almost my entire backyard! No way is that possible for me... As I said, my poor girls are still in their brooder, and they get along fine... I think a 8x12 pen + a 4x8 house will be good for them...

Oh, how we've heard THAT one before! The things we can talk ourselves into, thanks to innocence...

Remember, I said that was ideal. It was carefully worked out a hundred years ago, during the heyday of range-reared poultry.
It was considered intense management back then to have 500 birds per acre, or 87.12 sq ft/bird. These were guys who made their living from their birds and knew from experience what was most efficient - and most effective.

But, we all do what we can, with what we have at hand. There are many ways to do chickens and no one way. There are a few immutable rules, however, broken at our own risk. Crowding in the available space is one of them.

Fortunately for newcomers, everyone does it. It has become the norm, and everyone shares the same problem... so it doesn't seem like a problem at all. I think you will get along as normally as anyone, especially if you don't listen to me!

 

[quercus21]

Our coop is 4 x 8 with 8 NHR and the run size is approximately 10' x 20'. For a little bit more roaming for the birds, we bought some poultry electric fencing. At this time we don't have it charged. For the construction of the run, we used milled locust, which is abundant in our area. The locust has very good resistance properties to rotting. Before using pressure treated lumber, I would at some local mills in your area and see what they have.

 

[Zahboo]

I'd make it 8x10 so that at your coops maximum (8 birds) you'll still have a big enough run

 

[patandchickens]

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While you know very well that I agree in general that chickens are much better off with as much space as possible, certainly fewer chickens in a given area than most BYCers have... remember that efficiency often changes at different scales.

Yes, if you have hundreds of birds, or even 'just' many dozens, then keeping them confined gives you major sanitation tasks that basically free-ranging them on a very large area can avoid. (Although the area around the house still gets all messed up, even that way, even if you move it regularly)

But the sanitation chores for, like, 6 six chickens are so minimal (or anyhow *can* be, although of course a person can make as much work for themselves as they want) that there isn't much THERE for free-ranging in a large area TO be avoiding.

Whereas fencing in a 50x100' area, and replacing birds that predators get because that size area will never be *as* predator-proof-able as a smaller run, and periodically mowing or weed-whacking parts of that area if it is your yard and you or the neighbors do not want a thistle forest... you don't have to those chores or expenses for a smaller run.

So from an economic and ergonomic standpoint, I fear it is actually a lot more level playing field than David describes

And remember, David, if you are going to frown on chickens being kept with less than ~90 sq ft per chicken, many many people *could not own any chickens at all*. Which would be a shame, IMO. It's not like chickens are intensely miserable with only 10 sq ft of run. If that's all a person physically has room for, then it seems to me that's quite fine, although at the same time they should IMO limit themselves to a minimum number of chickens and not start playing collect-em-all with the Murray McMurray catalog or hatching-egg ads

JMHO,

Pat

 

[Davaroo]

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Frown? Me? I don't frown, Pat, I express.

I agree with you Pat. Having chickens the "normal" way is better than nuttin'. And make no mistake, I know my figure is the ideal. We rarely shoot for the ideal, let alone hit it. It is only there to illustrate a point.

But, I have found in many seasons at BYC that people crave a number; they want something to go by. So I give one I know works, one that suits both the bird and the earth it lives upon. Whether it suits the perceptions of the chicken keeper, is another matter.

My 87.12 sq ft isn't about the chickens mental state, their "happiness," as it were.
(I'm also of the opinion that they don't have a mental state as we relate to such things.) Instead its more about our mental state, that I share such information. Here's what I mean.

I drove by a chicken run today while in the next town.
"Oh look," Lori says, "chickens!"
Slowing down, I could see it was typical: too small, too cramped. It was denuded of all vegetation, a morass of mud and feathers, as it has recently rained. It wasn't that it was poorly sited, or poorly drained - it wasn't. It's more that it was inevitable to see it this way, since it followed the usual pattern. It brought down the entire look of the yard, it had flies aplenty and I'm certain it smelled.

It was about the size of a large room (10 x 12) and I saw evidence of only 3 or 4 chickens currently housed there. You could tell it had been in that spot for a long time and its residents had known nothing else.
They were getting about, although they were dirty and disheveled. I'm certain they were as "happy" as any chicken can be.

"Whats wrong with it?" Lori asked. "Why is it so funky looking?"
I shrugged. "Its the way it is... some people do it that way," I replied.

She asked that question because she has never seen chickens being kept that way.

By contrast to that method, the "run" I am currently working on will have none of that. It is covered in 4"-6" undergrowth and tall shrubs. There is grass and leaves and weeds and bugs and all sorts of "chicken joy" in there. The shrubs offer protection and shade, the low growth offers forage.
This is is my usual practice, by the way. I expect to keep 8-10 chickens in there when it's complete.

From experience in the past, I can safely predict there will be no smell, no flies, no unkempt look that doesn't fit in with that already rough part of the property. There will also be no problems stemming from what is essentially a dirt spot stuck out in the open, exposed to the open sky.

And here is the sublime part: there is almost no effort on my part. I feed and water them... and that is it. I don't lime, mulch, scrape poop, spread litter, post rants about how much mess chickens make, swat flies, wrinkle my nose or perform grounds maintenance in the run. It self sustains, in essence.

Is this for everyone? Yes, I believe so. We only have to accept that it can be, should we choose to hear a different drum beat. I decided some time ago that I wouldn't accept the usual chicken problems, so I settled on something else. That I modeled it on the bird itself and the works of men a century ago is just the way it played out. Whether you have 50 x 50 or 10 x 10 for a run, such as mine is in your reach.

I don't advocate that everyone do exactly as I do (although they might enjoy their chicken yard more, if they did). I once had a correspondent in Florida who housed his chickens in a fenced off section of a small grape orchard. Different conditions, same excellent result.

What is more important here is that we capture the image of the "ideal" habitat. A dirt bottomed, feather-heap of a moonscape isn't it, something I think we can all agree on.

If we know beforehand what habitat the chicken itself thrives best in, it isn't such a great leap to provide that. Once we model our efforts to that end, we find our results vastly more satisfying for both them and ourselves.

 

[patandchickens]

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Yeah, but you know, *I* don't do that stuff you talk about, either!

None of it outdoors (and I'm currently providing only 10 sq ft per chicken in one run, less for the juvenile pens), and only a very little bit of it indoors (sure, you can avoid having a meaningfully-indoor permanent coop in your climate, but I sure can't around here).

Is this for everyone? Yes, I believe so. <snip>Whether you have 50 x 50 or 10 x 10 for a run, such as mine is in your reach.

With just "10x10" of space available?? How exactly does that work - surely you're not suggesting a person keep only one chicken? (Well, 1.15, I suppose

) And what about people who don't even have that much space available, as is not infrequently the case in cities and townhouse-type subdivisions?

Even people with larger yards, they can't always leave the chickens loose in a topless pen. And if you can't realistically run them loose, or technically could but would lose multiple chickens per year and don't consider that acceptable, then, how can most people possibly provide your size seriously-predatorproof *run*? Only the very well-heeled.

I'm not sure how constructive it is to make it sound like people who aren't providing vast grassy expanses for their chickens are somehow being really unwise or wasteful. There are other management strategies that likewise result in just as little work as you're putting in, but done very differently. I'll admit that may not be obvious, given that BYC is largely populated by people apparently trying to *maximize* the amount of work they do for their chickens <vbg> but it's true nonetheless.

In reality, chickens thrive pretty good in a variety of different situations, not just one single model.

Pat​

 

[Davaroo]

So it is. There are those who do it one way, those who do another. I cannot possibly begin to know all the ways one can arrive at the ideal. But because it may not be readily seen, or may seem difficult, should we so readily reject it? Imagine Ghandi adopting that approach.

In truth it doesn't have to be that black or white. I mentioned the man with the grapes. He just used what he had, keeping the overall habitat goal in mind. So, instead of keeping 1.15 chickens (which does seem rather silly), perhaps some simple plantings and the right sort of cover for your locale would work, even in a 10 x 10 space.

Perhaps a garden scheme rotated between chicken runs would work (my personal favorite). I have seem some beautiful chicken runs that are actually sweetening garden plots in disguise, awaiting next years season to be called into production. Next year the current plot becomes the chicken run - and so it goes.
It is one way to deal with and even take advantage of, the toxic nature of confined chickens.

My thing is this. There are plenty of folks who tolerate "chicken funk" out of sheer ignorance.
So what if the average person who wanted chickens didn't have to go there? We always talk about seeing things in a different way, seeing all sides of an issue... what if a different approach, a little imagination, was all it took?

I know what I'm saying is outre and not the norm. For some, it may be too far outside what they know to see how it might benefit them. My name here at BYC says I'm a "crank," after all.

That's okay with me, if one person compromises the "standard," even a little, and attempts some of what I recommend. Even if they only partly hit it, my experience strongly suggests they will be ahead of the game for having done so.