S-p-u-r-r-e-d

[Louieandthecrew]

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No problem! It's great information. No need to worry

 

[galanie]

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I just shot off an Email to someone who contacted me about how to deal with a shy rooster. It's pretty long, probably too long to post here, but I'd be more than willing to Email it to you ( or is there a Private Messaging system here in BYC? ). Perhaps my next post should be about socializing and handling shy and skittish chickens! I think the biggest key element, though, would be to NOT allow yourself to bend to "feeling bad" about them. Their hardy and they can handle a whole lot more than we give them credit for. If you have EVER picked up your birds, even as chicks, they struggled a little, and you immediately dropped them then they have learned and been reinforced that being held is a BAD thing. They would have learned to abhor being held even more if ever once you cooed and cried over the situation. "Oh, you poor thing! I'm so sorry!!" I tell my rooster I'm sorry if I accidentally clock him ( like I did with my laptop cord just a few minutes ago ), but only if he's calm. The only physical attention I give in such a situation is a quick check to make sure there is no injury.

When it comes to being handled, socializing chickens, and desensitising them to people, I force them to put up with a lot. The rooster I tamed from a human aggressive rooster to sitting at the foot of my bed began with going out at night and grabbing him from the coop, where when he flailed I would hold him upside-down, holding his legs near his belly, and my whole hand grasping the back of his neck to keep him from pecking me and also to limit his options for flailing. When an animal panics, they have two options: Move or relax. Take away the option of movement, and they're forced to relax - but be careful not to OVER-restrain them, too! As for chickens, just the act of being upside-down is calming for them. When he would relax ( and that's not just not flailing, that's when I felt the tension of the body release ), I would flip him back rightside-up. If he flailed more at the movement, it was back to upside-down until he relaxed, then rightside-up and so forth. When he calmed down, I would adjust my grip to be hugging him against my body where I would bring him inside to watch movies with me on my lap. Point being, though, that I showed him a situation in which he perceived potential danger because he had not grown to trust humans for good reason, but I moved past this by showing him that if he were to relax, good things happened to him. After about a week I could easily approach him without him running away - but my house mates couldn't.

On a larger scale, this could be a tricky way to progress... however, if you manage to get one chicken to trust you, it can often make things breezier with the others. You mentioned using treats... try making it so they can ONLY get their treat if they take it from your hand. Then get them so they can only get their treat if they take it from your hand while your other hand is palm-up facing them. Then if your hand is moving. Then if you're touching them ( when using this method, I start with touching the breast, work my way to their head, and down their back ). Then if you're stroking them. Then if you're holding them. I have had success working up this way, but again, I was treating only a single chicken.

Also note that even if you DID inadvertently train them to not like being held, it is NOT irreversible - that just means it'll take some time and dedication on your part to convey a different message after all this time. You also need to work hard to be very, very consistent with your message. You can NOT give them mixed messages and expect positive results from them. When dealing with unwanted behaviour ( skittishness, aggression, etc. ) be quiet and stern but gentle. Always have them know that there are RULES and you expect them to be followed at all times regardless of your presence. However, when they are behaving in ways that you desire, crank out all of the cooing, praise, treats, petting, and anything else you want to give them. You should be seen as an equal amount of discipline and justice as well as affection and fun. Lastly, discipline and punishment are two VERY different things. Discipline is disagreeing with a behaviour in a manner that the animal understands ( dominating behaviours such as the neck-pinch and push down ), whereas punishment is anger and aggression that the animal doesn't understand at all ( hitting, kicking, yelling, etc. ). NEVER punish your animal, but don't ever hesitate to discipline. Animals discipline each other all the time. It's natural and it's understood - the only thing that might confuse them is why YOU suddenly start doing it! But once they get over that initial confusion, they'll start to listen.

Anyway, that Email I mentioned above goes into greater detail in different approaches to dealing with skittish chickens, and my varying degrees of success with each one. Send me an Email or Private Message or something if interested.



Lastly, I am SO SORRY that I seemed to have unintentionally hijacked your thread, Louie!! I just wanted to help people help their animals!!

When you bring them in, don't they poo on you? I love your blog and read every word. You seem to use the same positive reinforcement methods that folks use in clicker training other birds, just without a clicker. While negative reinforcement might work with mammals somewhat, I think that methods such as yours are the only way for birds, after having experienced taming and training my own cockatiels. I'm using your methods now on my little flock but really, don't they poo on you if they're inside on your lap for a long time? Silly question, but I just must know.

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

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Well, one could argue that the use of "pecking" to discourage a bad behaviour is use of negative reinforcement, and if that's the case I would claim to use a balance of both positive and negative reinforcement. I find it important to discourage bad behaviour just as much as I encourage good behaviour. I guess that depends on your definition of "negative reinforcement", though!

As for defecation in the lap... yes and no. I always, always use a towel just in case, but I'm also little by little working on house training my chickens. Compared to when they were chicks and much younger, I have had VERY FEW accidents these days! Chickens are very much creatures of habit, so to house train them, you simply work off of that. Whenever my chickens poop I say, "Go pooters!" I chose "pooters" instead of "poop" or any variation thereof because perhaps the most common question I get asked other than, "Is that really a chicken?" ( as I take my chickens with me into the city quite often ) is probably "What do you do when they poop?" and any other variation of "poop" out there. I contemplated using the command word "Defecate!", but "Go pooters" just comes out much more readily.

While outside, I cart my chickens around in a satchel ( one at a time, not the whole flock in one bag! ), and chickens associate this satchel with a nest area, and even boys have an instinct NOT to "go" in the nest. It's ingrained in them since chickhood. I used to take my chicks around with me bundled in my scarf ( and it was a WONDERFUL scarf - super soft and warm with all those baby chicks and their soft chick plumage all cuddled up right against my neck with a big, thick, warm scarf holding them in ), and about every hour or so I would drop them in some grass. THOSE were big poops! Since I was using a heat lamp method at this time instead of my current heat pad method, they were up all night long, and if I didn't give them a definitive time to sleep, they became very, VERY cranky and would become VERY loud, AND they were living in my room, so when they were cranky at night, guess who wasn't getting any sleep! While awake all night, and sleeping in my scarf all day, I totally alleviated their discourse with a lack of "night time", and learned that even chicks can hold their bowels very well when in a "nest" - this is to keep the nest as clean as possible while raising the babies, because no babies raised on a pile of poo are ever very healthy, and we all know the animal kingdom is all about being as healthy as possible. However, knowing this, we know that chickens DO, in fact, have bowel control, and knowing that chickens have bowel control means that house training is entirely possible!

So my chickens are integrated with the command phrase "Go pooters". As they begin to recognise this phrase as something associated with something they do, when I say it out of context, they begin to experiment to see just what it is that it means. When I let my chickens outside and I say to them, "Go pooters!' when they haven't defecated, they perk up and look at me. Then they turn around, and look at me. Squat, and... look at me. They continue to check in to see just what it means. Then they poop, and I explode with, "Good go pooters! Good, good go pooters!" and commence to give them scratches on their breast and head, comb and wattles, and anywhere the individual chicken seems to enjoy. As time progresses, it gets to the point that I can have my eldest in someone else's house with me for several hours, then take him outside or perch him on the bathroom sink or toilet, tell him "Go pooters", and he squats and goes.

Expanding on this command phrase, let's grab a littler box ( NO litter as the chickens will try to eat it ), a metal pie pan, news paper, trash bin, toilet, or whatever else you want to use as a "designated" area. Wait until you think your chicken is ready to go ( this can sometimes be done by timing them between poops to see how long on average they wait between going ), pick them up, put them in the designated area, and give them their command phrase. If they poop, praise them. If they don't, just wait until they do. Maybe let them go awhile longer. NEVER discipline them for going in the wrong place, though! Not until they have a FIRM gasp of where it's okay to go, and even then discipline sparingly. I use each and every poop as an opportunity to reinforce their command phrase. I may eventually expand it to include "NO pooters!" if they go somewhere they really, really shouldn't, but I will definitely hesitate on that.

Looking at what we've discussed above, that chickens have an instinct not to go in the nest, thus granting them bowel control; that chickens are dire creatures of habit; that chickens are very smart and inquisitive animals ( smart enough to EXPERIMENT with behaviour ), and thus trainable... we will conclude that it is entirely possible to house train your chicken.

On an unrelated note, though, I would VERY much disadvise thinking of chickens as just about any other "bird". Things in the pheasant family tend to act and think in a very different way than, let's say... the corvid family or the parrot and cockatoo families. Their diet, usual predators, physical capabilities, and environments tend to be quite different from other birds, thus they must think differently from other birds. What works with a parrot might not ( and probably will not ) work with a chicken. I know I say that I treat chickens very much like dogs, but that is while recognising that chickens have their very own psychology and behaviourism as well. Chickens are very unique from other birds in many ways, which is why it is important not to lump them with "birds" when talking about behaviour, psychology, and especially techniques used in training and interacting with them. I've had a few people now try to hire me to work with their parrots because they think what I have to say about chickens is so good, but I have to tell people all the time that I will NOT work with parrots, cockatiels, or any other domesticated bird. I will work with chickens only, and maybe I'll work with your turkeys, but I will not work with your peafowl or your guinea fowl, because I do not understand them since they are so different from chickens. Feel free to experiment on your own time with bridging the gap between different species language, but I'm certainly not going to try it, and certainly not with someone else's animals.

 

[galanie]

You're absolutely right about chickens not being the same as other birds! I'd never do to my cockatiels the things I do with my chickens. But, responding better to positive reinforcement than to negative (except in the cases where you're doing natural chicken things, like the peck) I do think is the way to go. They do have minds, they do think, and they won't do anything they don't want to do. Period. Positive reinforcement, I think, is the best way for them to want to do what you want them to do, is more what I meant. My shyest girl is about to watch part of a movie with me, and now I know for sure to use a towel. I'm not going to have them inside enough to house train, but I might some day try that.

Thank you very much for your valuable information!!

 

[cwdresmker]

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THAT'S exactly what happened when my son was 4...mean old bird tried to spur him and he became dinner!!

 

[ChickieBooBoo]

Thanks for the heads up Louie, that is exactly why any bird who spurs me once gets a warning, next time they are in the pot. No questions asked

 

[Louieandthecrew]

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Wow!

 

[bock]

My bantam OEG bantam rooster is driving me crazy! Thursday, I was opening up the coop door with one hand, holding three eggs in the other, when he got me. Hi spur somehow went through the seam in my pants and he got me in the side of my calf. He ended up getting his spur stuck, and I literally had to pull him out of my leg, dropping all the eggs in the process.

I swear, if he does it again, he is going to the dogs.

 

[ChickieBooBoo]

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Wow!

there are PLENTY other roos out there who are not mean. I don't want to worry about guests being attacked by a nasty roo, it leaves them the impression the all roos are like that (if they dont know anything about poultry) I want to show people how beautiful and friendly chickens can be, not how much it hurts when a roo drives his spurs into your leg

 

[galanie]

One thing I just cannot get used to, is that people will keep asking the same question until they get the answer they want to hear. Ok not everyone, but enough that it seems like everyone.

Basically get rid of it, kill it, or try to train it. There are variations but remember, you cannot control what people do with something after you give it to them.