Sdwd

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
I have to say that even though I was at the ALBC conference they were not very helpful with my questions about the Delaware breed. Further any "experts" they directed me to were also unresponsive. Perhaps too uneducated to use a computer. It's very annoying for this old man to see my counter parts so ignorant or reluctant to return an e-mail if this breed is of any concern at all. I see no point in having spent money for a web page if they are not going to respond to e-mails.

I also was annoyed that the Delaware breed was left off the list of rare breeds high lighted in the past issue of Hobby Farms magazine.

Anyone attempting to work with this breed should be aware that they are the hardest to work with in my opinion due to the feather pattern and type issues. When you work with some such as the Buckeye there is little to worry about in the way of color since you only have one.

I agree, Tim. Delawares are a tough breed to work with .... to reach the SOP type.

I believe WE are gonna be the experts, Tim. You and I, Beth, and the few others that work with this breed, research and study, etc. Honestly, I think we are the ones who will one day be the experts. I won't quit. I won't give up on them.

I will continue on with my project, with the 4 partners I have. I hope we will all learn from this venture.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote:
There is no way to know that without a test, Tim, or one popping up in the lines. The parent passes a gene of that type to about 50% of the progeny, so many will not have it. I know that LH's pullet, Cannonball, who is related to my current group, does not carry a dwarf gene at all--we know that only through blood testing. If you have one of Georgie's kids, it has a 50% chance of having a gene from her, but I don't know if you had any eggs from her-that was way back before this issue reared its head.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
There is no way to know that without a test, Tim, or one popping up in the lines. The parent passes a gene of that type to about 50% of the progeny, so many will not have it. I know that LH's pullet, Cannonball, who is related to my current group, does not carry a dwarf gene at all--we know that only through blood testing. If you have one of Georgie's kids, it has a 50% chance of having a gene from her, but I don't know if you had any eggs from her-that was way back before this issue reared its head.

This is so interesting to me. I would just love to talk the vet. One question I would ask him is what dwarf genes did he test for. Ya know what I mean. The 5 dwarf genes I have found, are all so different. I wonder which one or ones it is that he is studying and working up an article on.

I just know the ones I have, that are not visually dwarfs, still carry the td dwarfing gene. Or, at least some of them do. Jacob, for sure, has it.

 

[Cetawin]

Okie Dokie I shall adress as much of the ??? and speculations as I can.

First: By extinct, extinction is reached when a specific breed's or species' numbers fall below a certain level. Not extinction as the dinosaur. I came across the information years ago when I was researching the Delaware which was prompted by pics of Isaac and my husband's love for his look. I cannot remember where I found the information as it was not a "save or die" situation is was merely one of curiosity and background knowledge on the breed.

Secondly: Kathy you are correct. The Delaware were created in 1940 as a dual purpose breed and they were put into production use. In the 1950's, they were replaced by the Cornish and Cornish crosses in production and Delaware fell the way of the dodo and into backyard flocks. By the mid 1960's, there numbers were below acceptable levels and in backyard flocks. As with any breed in the backyard flock, especially at that time, they were mixed with other breeds in the backyard and thus reducing their numbers even more. They remain critically endangered and are only off the extinction list because somewhere, someone decided to bring the breed back.

Just as you Kathy are attempting to create your own line of Delaware, so did others or there would be no Delaware alive today. Now, can you sit there and say that the birds you create, or even the birds you are using, are genetically the same birds as they were 40 - 50 years ago? No you cannot. The Barred Rocks and the New Hampshires used to create the original Delaware were much purer than they are today. How often do we see or hear of folks breeding in X to improve Z? Too darn often. Folks add Columbians to Delaware, Barred Rocks to New Hampshires and etc etc all in the name of "improving" a breed...what does it do? It plays God genetically and fails, why because genetics will do whatever the hell it wants too.

Now while I am no genetics specicialist, I am an educated woman and I have a ton of common sense which tells me this....genetics are NOT something you can expect to stay identical for generations. Were that the case then humans would not be born with one eye blue and one eye green, blond parents from blond parents would not have redheaded or brunette children, Blue Orps would not throw birds with red in them, Delaware would no throw birds with columbian markings or no markings, color breeding that fails and on and on it goes. All with the experts sitting back and saying "Well that shouldn't be" well guess what...it is.

As to the study, bookmark this because this will be the last time I post all of this nonsense....I have 2 Delaware girls and do not breed them, will not breed them and have no intention of breeding Delaware. On a farm visit for another reason, I spoke to my former vet about Cannonball who is the daughter of Isaac and Phoebe. She is petite with light to no markings and is very un-Delaware in appearance. I thought she might be a dwarf or had something wrong so I asked him to look at her. I did not know he had an interest in the dwarf genes of poultry and was studying them but he asked to take blood from both girls, their pics and me to sign a release to use the information. I agreed and the blood samples were taken. He told me that his study indicated that the dwarf genes could be passed from one parent bird only and in multiples. Which honestly did not matter to me because they are pets only to me.

Fattie, the daughter of Isaac and Kira, came back DNA's very unrelated to Cannonball except through the sire which we knew because of Isaac being the only rooster involved. Cannonball was clean for any dwarf gene but Fattie had double. Sadly, this means that all of her offspring will have the gene by either being dwarfs from hatch or by carrying the gene. So it was advised not to breed her and I do not. Her eggs go into the "eat" basket.

Now during the time frame that I hatched my Delaware, several dwarfs were thrown and many eggs hatched. The combination of Isaac and Kira was giving drawfs, we know this from Fattie and dwarfs that were hatched from Kira marked or recognized eggs. Kathy, your Jacob was an Isaac baby I remember you being excited about it early on...you also had plenty of Kira eggs in your hatches because Kira was Cyn's main producer at that time. And most likely one of your girls was the drawf gene thrower not Jacob. Have Jacob tested before you say you know he has it...because that is the oly way you can say for sure he does.

So, rather than write a simple article on the topic, the vet decided to do the closed studies. He is working with 50 pairs of bird...pairs of Delaware, Barred Rocks, New Hampshires, Wyandottes and one other I cannot remember. I will try to dig up his number and such for you Kathy and you may call him all you wish, I doubt you will get much info from him on an ongoing study. I will get a copy of whatever he publishes as per my signature to use my birds' pics and labs. His studies as of the last we spoke which was a year and a half ago, still indicated the gene(s) can pass from one parent only. He is studying all 5 genes to answer that question...one he does not expect good results from because it is a rarity and difficult to duplicate. He also hopes to find Fattie and/or Kira's DNA sequencing history show up again somewhere, dwarf genes were introduced somewhere. Had Cannonball had a dwarf gene, he would have said to cull Ike from the breeding program but that is not the case. I am waiting to see the findings myself because there are no experts in this field because no one has taken the time to study either the Delaware or dwarf genes until now, or any other dwarf throwing breed....many take the time to try to breed, improve and claim themselves experts for whatever reason. I say to them, take every bird you have and pay for DNA and gene testing...then you will have your answers and can do your own study.

Common sense tells us (me) that you cannot take birds of today and mix them as was done in the 40s and expect the same results. Sure the bird may look the same but genetically, it is impossible to recreate lines that have died out and it is impossible to think that any of today's Delaware lines are from the original birds of the 40s. The chances of are better to play the lottery and win.

So while you breed your BRs and NHRs and another breeder slips in a Columbian for better markings and those lines get crossed down the line...remember your doubts now because Delaware are not the only breed throwing drawfs...BR, Wyandottes, NHRs, RIRs and many others throw them too.

Every wonder how a bantam is made from a LF breed? hmmmmm If you can shrink it I would say you can dwarf it. You cannot play genetics god and not suffer some consequences somewhere...there is always a price to be paid for interference.

And not just chickens....look at horses. How many idiots have spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for foals from the late great Secretariat who was genetically perfect. He had a heart that was perfect but doublt the size of a normal horse's heart. It was determined that he got it from his mother who got it from her father. So dad gives the big heart gene to his daughter and she gives it to her son. Well now Secretariat had over 100 daughters and they have produced that many colts (sons) and NOT ONE of them got the large heart and NOT ONE of them ever had the ability to process oxygen through the heart and lungs the way Secretariat's heart did. Why? Genetics do what they want to do...plain and simple. Any fool who
believes they can recreate what the creator put here is a pitful soul indeed. And when they try the see how small they are in the grand scheme of things.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
Then a pitiful soul I shall be, in your eyes I see.

 

[Cetawin]

I do not think it is the same thing. The creator put the chicken here not the Delaware. Are you trying to recreate the chicken? Nor was I referring to you when I said "some folks, breeders etc" I am talking about the danged hatcheries and these wannabe breeders which is where ultimately most the stock starts. Now if you are going to try to recreate the chicken then yes...you are a fool in my eyes because there is not a human alive, myself included that can come close to creating what the Creator did.

I see what you are doing as Breeding and creating a line...will it go perfectly? Of course not. Will you succeed? Most likely on you determine that. Nothing I said was directed at you personally except regarding Jacob sso pleaes do not take it personally or take offense.

 

[speckledhen]

Kathy, I am very hopeful for your new Delaware line project, I really am. The breed needs it badly! I'm sure we all would love for that to be successful. It would be great if you could speak to this vet and get him to explain first hand what he's found and what he's doing with his project, if he will. Maybe he can speak to some of the facts that seem on the surface to fly in the face of what we thought we knew about genes and dwarfism in particular. Hopefully, LH can get any future publication/finding he produces. Would make some very interesting reading, I think. In any case, this has been highly educational, to say the least.


Check out these pics of the newly installed brooder and storage part of the new bantam coop when you have time. This pen is larger than the brooder I have in the house so should hold these chicks that will hatch in a week. And wow, they are doing great, thanks to sellers with good stock who know how to pack an egg! I still have 62 eggs out of 80 shipped, not too shabby, I think. I'm psyched about all the stock--all parent stock are fabulous quality. I doubt I'll ever hatch that many at once again, but I won't have to, now will I?

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=6015125#p6015125

 

[PepsNick]

Thank you SO much for the info, everyone! It is so fascinating, as I am slowly learning about these. It is so great to have such experienced people on hand!

Kathy, your motivation is great! I wish you great luck on this!!

What seems to be the worst quality problems that you guys are encountering on the Delawares? All I know is that they tend to have too dark hackle feathers.

Cyn, the brooder looks GREAT.

ALSO, the dwarfs... Luno had respiratory issues. Was it that smart that I separated it before I culled it? Could it have spread illness to the rest?

BR x NH produces Black Sexlinks, now. My head spins when I imagine that producing Delawares! How could it have produced such white feathered birds, and now makes black feathered birds? What caused this? Sorry if I'm mistaken.

ETA: I'm on page 164 on the Del thread. I see where SDWD originally came from, and how you all met! Oh yes, I'm getting a good laugh here, yard full of it...

 

[speckledhen]

LH, you need to be sure you want these D'Uccles, girl. Went out after dark to be sure they and Tasha were not in the nests. Could not find Lizzie. I looked everywhere, in the nests, on the high extension cord, on the wall ledges, could not find that little minx anywhere. I know she was in the coop because we went in there after locking them in for the night. Finally, I gave up and went to the house to get DH to help look for her. He brought his flashlight and accidentally, I flashed it at the ceiling. There was Lizzie, up on the divider wall, the almost 9' divider wall, between the storage area and the coop area. DH had to go to the new bantam coop where we left our stepladder and bring it back to get her down. That girl is a character! And she can fly as high as she needs to. She is a hoot!

LH, you asked me about Knockout. It may still be worth getting, but they did lower the sunflower seed content. If you get cheaper scratch, by the time you added what Knockout has, you'd be over the price you'd pay for Knockout in the first place. This was the first bag I got with the lack of sunflower seeds and the different type of corn. I think that new lighter color whole kernel corn replaced much of the popcorn that was in the mix, seems to me. I'll keep a watch on the mix and see if I just got a dud bag. It's still about $11.50/bag, so it may be okay to just add some BOSS to improve the mix. I'm thinking they lowered the content of one of the more expensive ingredients, the BOSS, to save money.

 

[rancher hicks]

Quote:
I have to say that even though I was at the ALBC conference they were not very helpful with my questions about the Delaware breed. Further any "experts" they directed me to were also unresponsive. Perhaps too uneducated to use a computer. It's very annoying for this old man to see my counter parts so ignorant or reluctant to return an e-mail if this breed is of any concern at all. I see no point in having spent money for a web page if they are not going to respond to e-mails.

I also was annoyed that the Delaware breed was left off the list of rare breeds high lighted in the past issue of Hobby Farms magazine.

Anyone attempting to work with this breed should be aware that they are the hardest to work with in my opinion due to the feather pattern and type issues. When you work with some such as the Buckeye there is little to worry about in the way of color since you only have one.

I agree, Tim. Delawares are a tough breed to work with .... to reach the SOP type.

I believe WE are gonna be the experts, Tim. You and I, Beth, and the few others that work with this breed, research and study, etc. Honestly, I think we are the ones who will one day be the experts. I won't quit. I won't give up on them.

I will continue on with my project, with the 4 partners I have. I hope we will all learn from this venture.

Well I will say this. I've considered not keeping any other related breeds so there can be no doubt there is a mix. Scott is supposed to send me some CR eggs but I'm not sure I will keep them on the place nor BR's trylin and I are expecting. Of course I have the orps but they aren't in the mix that I know of.

Nor are silkies and I don't intend to keep more than the three I have. They of course are just a completely different story.

I will also be hatching as many of the old WNY chicks as I can before they are no longer viable. The hatchability rate of these birds is still good. This will be my third summer with them. I have an interested person here who wants a flock of dels, so she may be of some help.

I will be keeping the WNY line out of the mix for now. I do have six hens from three specific WNY hens and Nick. If their comb color is any indication they are near lay. Which would put them at 16-20 wks. One thing that should be remembered is that feed now is better than it was in the 40's and 50's. Am I right?

to be cont'd

Rancher