Sebastopol breeding

[ChickenHwk]

Thanks for agreeing with me cottage rose... I should clarify that I didn't mean that the birds were currently (going extinct) but at one time there were very few Sebastopols left in the world which brought people to start raising them because they were in very few numbers. I probably shouldn't have used the phraze "on the brink of extinction" but I think you get the idea.

I just bought a nice pair of Sebastopols from a woman in Maryland. The gander came from Holderreads and the goose is his daughter although the goose has some minor faults I believe that they can still be used as some nice breeding stock for my future generation sebbie flock.

If I sell some more animals I might end up getting some more sebbies to add to my growing flock and in the process hopefully find some nice birds

Thanks

 

[Cottage Rose]

Sorry, my mistake, just misunderstood what you meant.
Thought you might be going off the American Livestock Breed Conservancy listing that I wonder about sometimes.
As an example they list American Buff Geese as "critical" and list chicken breeds critical that are easily available
via Murray McMurray and many other hatcheries.
Makes you wonder what they base their stats on.
Good luck with your Sebastopols.
Keep us posted!

 

[DaveK]

Quote:
Hi ChickenHawk, not sure how we got from breeding and feeds to this but will do my best to address some of your questions. I am not at all sure that Sebastopols have ever been that rare or hard to find, at least not here in North America. I first started looking for a good start in 1970 and had no trouble finding folks who would gladly let you have something but the quality was universally awful. I will call birds like that degenerative. There's way more decent stock to work with today. Showroom entries may give one the idea that they were not aubundant but that's because they can be a hard bird to condition and transport for showing resulting in few if any entries even at a large show. I did, with help from one of the judges, find very good stock in 1972. I grew up in a stock oriented environment and knew that I wanted good quality but that's also what looked nice to my eye. Thiose degenerative things did not. Nowadays there are lots of very pretty birds that really ARE pretty though they may not be the best for breed improvement. That can make choosing harder, especially for a novice who is just not sure of what they are looking at. As for "large" breeders I am not sure what you mean. I have seen the term "big breeders" used in a derogatory way when applied to those who breed and show and are actually well known for good stock and being out there and doing something. I bought my first because I wanted geese and I learned that I wanted Sebastopol geese if good ones worth feeding could be found. They were found as was their breeder, a fabulous older gentleman who became and remained a friend until the end of his long and interesting life. I did show once taking some homebred youngsters to a show where a I knew I'd get to meet a very good judge who I wanted to see my birds. But for the next nearly twenty years I simply bred and kept them because I loved them and the working with them. I do think in terms of exhibition quality and breed with that in mind but way foremost was the simple enjoyment of the geese themselves and the fascination of a breeding program that eventually involved a network of half a dozen individuals. BIG? Not me. Roughly a dozen youngsters hatched and raised was plenty to give me enough to do along with having something to look at in the fall. This year I actually hatched and raised 20 but that was from 28 eggs and I did not expect results quite that good. That's kind of a lot for me so like I said I am not a "large breeder'. I did eventually find myself at a point in my life (and with a wife who liked poultry and poultry shows) where I could show at one large show a year. Birds from this flock sometimes did phenomenally well but that wasn't the point. The shows were full of very interesting, likeable people and were just plain fun. Nothing about those wins makes me a large breeder either. At any rate long story short is that in my case the birds were not gotten as an ego or wallet boosting show thing. Those who have exhibiting as their very first priority and who must win are not the sort that usually stick with it as the instant they have a bad show season they are done and on to something else. So you are right. For many there is way more to it than the "I wanna show goose" mindset. As far as affording show quality Sebastopols I would suggets going to the Ohio National (it's in your back yard) and looking at birds and seeing who has stock that appeals to you and your eye. A real breder never stops learnuing but if you have an affinity for this breed there will be stock you like and some that just doesn't float your boat. Establish contact with people and let them know what you think you might want or need. I have never yet met a Sebastopol breeder who would not help someone they thought was sincerely interested in the breed. Find out what the $$$ involved for good quality breeding/show stock are from some of these folks. After looking at extreme prices for pets I can understand why anyone would think quality would be out of sight but that isn't always the case. I remember a picture you posted and it does look like a nice start when considering the colors. Don't loose heart and don't assume too much about "the big breeders'. A lot of them have bigger hearts than you might expect. [email protected] www.sebastopols.freeforums.org

 

[Mrs. Turbo]

I put my Sebs in 3 shows this year because I was lucky enough to keep them clean. Last year was a mess because of them breeding at odd times and pulling their feathers.
We enjoy showing our birds and I also found that when I take them to a show and people see them they want some too. It is a great way to get others involved in showing the Sebastopols and work on improving them. It is also nice to find shows that others will be showing at so you can compare birds and see where you are in the breeding process, but I live close to Melinda Hoffman so we don't win very often....LOL. There was a great article on Sebastopols Dave wrote for the IWBA club if anyone is interested..... The website is IWBA.org

I first got the Sebastopols because they look stunning swiming on the pond and then I wanted to work on breeding to the standard like we do all of our birds so I started showing them to compare them to others. I track down Brice Wonders at the call duck nationals or Jim K at the shows and make them look at my geese and give me pointers. Now if only I could get Dave to show up at the Ohio Nationals next year.

I am also not a large breeder. I culled down to my top birds this fall and have a total of 8 for the upcoming breeding season. 4 hens and 4 ganders..... I am not selling goslings in the spring so I can improve my breeders and I might continue to do this year after year as long as I have the space to keep them. I did hear that some people paid $1,000 each for some of the Sebs from Holderreads. WOW!!!

no offense anyone....

 

[Cottage Rose]

Mrs. Turbo :

I did hear that some people paid $1,000 each for some of the Sebs from Holderreads. WOW!!!

no offense anyone....

OMG!

I'd like to see those birds!
But really... are any geese worth $1000. each?!!

Dang! They better lay some golden eggs!

I so wanted to go to Ohio National this year (to look) but bad time of year for me.
I'd like to show my Sebs...but...the idea of hauling then down there
and all that goes along with it makes me think... "Naaaaa!"...every year.
I'm so lazy.

Gonna try to go to make the 2011 Indy show real hard
since its in October and I might be able to swing it.
How many Sebs were at Ohio this year?
Are Melinda's foundation geese from Audrey?​

 

[DaveK]

Hi again ChickenHawk, I had meant to say that as you start your breeding program, raise some birds and are figuring out how to proceed don't be misled into thinking that breed improvement, even within your own flock, is a numbers game. Some of the most spectacular Sebastopols I have had the good fortune to see have been bred by folks raising somewhere around a dozen goslings a year. It's a genetics game and not numbers - mediocre genetics multiplied 50 times over is still mediocre genetics.

If there's a flash in the pan it may look the part but considering it's background it's prospects as a true breeder are usually poor. If someone loves the breed, has and continues to develop an eye and breeds towards improvement and doesn't just wish things to be so progress will be made. And as you have mentioned it's a fun journey. Mrs. Turbo will understand when I say, again, that some of the guys raising 400 Call Ducks are trying to better someone who, when actively breeding, didn't raise 40. He didn't need to. Genetics, not the luxury of vast numbers of breeders or goslings raised. Good advice handed out is to start small and good and stay that way. Witness what Cottage Rose has bred from a matched pair of saddlebacks supplied by another breeder. That's genetics at work.

Dave Holderread has often been mentioned as the most expensive source for Sebastopol stock there is. We now have to say was, if indeed that was true. Sell out prices from a business/good breeder are not likely to be cheap. That said I am not aware of $1000 birds having been offered to anyone and there was plenty of networking. Friends say that they are sure the Sebastopol numbers at the Ohio National this year exceeded 20 but I have no accurate count. That's a lot compared to normal but it's awfully nice to hear about. Despite what others say neither Melinda Hoffman nor Audrey will tell you that Melinda's original birds came from Audrey or her stock. I do find that many times names get thrown around with no real understanding of what might be represented by that name.

Sometimes it is true that birds from one breeder are not consistent or with a certain look or general impression. And sometimes birds just stand out as being from old so & so.

[email protected] www.sebastopols.freeforums.org

 

[Cottage Rose]

DK says: "Witness what Cottage Rose has bred from a matched pair of saddlebacks supplied by another breeder.
That's genetics at work."

Oh please...then shall we also witness what "another breeder" got from Dave Holderread?
We're all aware its not a numbers game DK but come on, it doesn't hurt when one can keep 50 goslings a year,
grow them out, select the best and cull the rest. Oh yes indeed, faster advances can be made that way
WHEN COUPLED with the fact that "another breeder" has gone out and purchased top quality
breeding stock from another breeder/s who has laid the foundation with many years of selective breeding.
As for getting fab results with small numbers of birds this only works IF you have the means to go
out and purchase good quality foundation stock which all of us can't do for various reasons.
So backyard breeders, its perfectly fine if you don't have the ability to breed exhibition birds
and its okay to breed mediocre to mediocre and hope for the best
OR breed mediocre to better stock and upgrade your stock a little bit at a time.
That's the reality for most of us.
Don't let the critics discourage you.
And no...my panties aren't in a bunch,
I just have a low tolerance for ...well never mind.

Edited to add: My so called "matched pair"of saddlebacks are siblings...hardly a recommended breeding.

 

[DaveK]

Cottage Rose, let's start at the end and clarify something here. I don't believe that pair of saddle backs are full siblings which often IS a recommended mating. Sibling matings tend to stir the genetic pot and bring up the different combinations possible from the two parents. You can get a surprising amount of variation that way. Since when do two siblings have the same genetic blueprint anyways?

They have each gotten a sometimes slightly, sometimes greatly different combination of genes from their background. If this is such a horrible mating you have had two years to undo the terrible. As far as telling a newcomer with an obvious interest not to be discouraged by the critics I would have to say that what you post by way of advice would sure as heck discourage me if I didn't already know better. Nothing about any of my posts or advice is meant to infer that one SHOULD be breeding for exhibition/top/good quality specimens. Fun is fun and everyone has their own version. That includes the breeding and keeping of stock no matter what the quality. I've seen folks who didn't have purebred stock much less exhibition stock derive great pleasure from their ownership and that's wonderful. Do our dogs, cats whatever have to be top quality to be enjoyed? I think not and neither do our geese. THIS poster ChickenHawk DID express an interest in improvement and having what would be considered good quality stock. Your advice makes it sound as though huge $$$$ amounts must be spent and huge numbers raised and evaluated in order to make progress. Either that or they can just limp along doing the feeble best they can while hoping for just a little bit of movement forward. It doesn't have to be like that. Genetics doesn't work like that and as I told the poster once you have some idea of what you want to do and have figured out who might have what would help these breeders will most usually bend over backwards to help. Folks will think and believe what they want but raising 50 of something isn't going to produce anything any more genetically stable than raising only 10. Not if the original stock and breeding behind it is worthwhile. As I said you may get that flash of gold but that is not what fosters improvement in a small flock or a breed. I sure am glad that it doesn't take huge numbers either. Think of trying to raise 50 puppies, sheep, horses etc. in order to get something good enough to consider that you've made some improvement?

ChickenHawk, you will find your way as seems best to you. I am just trying to offer the opinion that improvement needn't be an uphill slope littered with dead bodies and $$$$$ galore. [email protected] www.sebastopols.freeforums.org

 

[Cottage Rose]

DK says: " I don't believe that pair of saddle backs are full siblings"

I cannot respond to this.
I would probaly get kicked off the board.
All I'm going to say is, DK when it comes to me you have a propensity to misinterpret,
distort and not understand, muuuuuchof what I say.
Chickenhwk and I have private messaged about this topic and we're on the same page, so no worries.

 

[DaveK]

Quote:
Cottage Rose, misunderstanding the written word can happen easily enough but I really can't imagine what there would be to misunderstand about your statement here. You state yourself that they are siblings. As I remember they come from a trio mating with the breeder feeling that they each have a different mother. If wrong I am sure the breeder who shared them with you will correct me. And again, in case you missed it the first time around, is the idea that if the matched pair was such an unsuitable mating you have had two years to do something else than keep them together. But again, nothing I can see to misunderstand and certainly nothing that should generate such an angry, hostile response on your part that you would be kicked off this forum. Honest differences of opinion shouldn't have anyone going anywhere. How those differences get expressed, publicly and privately, could be a whole other story. [email protected] www.sebastopols.freeforums.org