"Secret Ingredients" in Commercial Chicken Feed

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

On attracting pests...haven’t seen any really. The run is fenced but not raccoon-proof. We live in a rural area but in a “neighborhood”.

I do make sure to work any uneaten waste into the pile after a day or two, but I’m a bit surprised not to have ANY critters.

 

[IndigoSkies]

I haven't done a significant amount of "book research" since this thread went cold last fall, but I have been doing a lot of "field research".

I've been feeding my flock a significant portion of their daily intake in food waste and compost for the last several months (WAAAY more than 10% of their diet...GASP!). I still provide layer pellet free-choice, but when the scraps are coming in and the pile is really humming, they eat very little of the commercial feed.

Basically, I built a really big compost pile in my run. The chickens knock it down, I keep piling it up. I pick up a sizable load of food waste 1-2 times a week from a local food pantry that would otherwise have to throw it away. It gets thrown on the pile and whatever doesn't feed the chickens feeds the piles...which in turn bring in large quantities of worms and other crawlies, which feed the chickens.

The biggest challenges is that it's a lot of work, and that it's actually hard to source enough carbon for a setup this size at certain times of year.

My flock has never been healthier or happier, and are sufficiently productive.

I actually have 55 chicks showing up later this week to add to the roughly 30 I have currently, and have plans to build a larger compost area to increase operations.

The plan has a temporary kink - I broke my right forearms two weeks ago, which means no compost piling, food waste pickups, and composter building for a while...but based on the last 5 months, I think this is a viable and sustainable approach.

It is a LOT of work and messy work at that, but turning waste into chicken AND soil food is an amazing process I'm finding quite addictive.

There might be something youre interested in https://abundantpermaculture.com/how-to-feed-chickens-without-grain/ there. There were some mentions of composting as a means in that article. I bet a lot of these permaculture geniuses have composting strategies for getting more brown matter in there. Sounds like you're doing great though (aside from your arm! that sucks!). I think comfrey sounds like a good idea. When we move I think I want to plan to move them around. I found his site bc I was looking for one of these https://abundantpermaculture.com/chicken-tractor-diy/ to move them around. His content is great, but the videos are too fast for me lol. He really talks super fast and I'm like wait huh? I'm also interested in trying out fermented grains bc they say it reduces feed costs a lot. It also seems easy enough. I think I want to try the garbage can feeders or maybe just a bucket and let them choose which items to eat.

Heres some info on that http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd17/4/pous17... can handle up to,together in the same feeder.

Here is a cool study I found that analyzed free choice. It went well. The only thing was that the shells weren't as thick so they recommend a calcium supplement. It looks promising to try as the study went well. There was more profit bc feed costs were lower than with a formulated diet.

https://certifiedorganic.bc.ca/programs/osdp/I-178_Free-Choice_Feeding_Final_Report.pdf

What they fed below

Experimental diets All hens were initially fed an organic 16% protein layer-mash (In-Season Farms Inc., Abbotsford, BC, Canada), consisting of cracked grains, legumes, soy, and canola meal. After a one week acclimation period to the experimental setup, hens in three of the six pens were placed on the experimental free-choice diet (Experimental group). This diet consisted of separate portions of whole wheat kernels and a 35% protein source (peas, soy, and flax plus vitaminmineral premix; In-Season Farms Inc., Abbotsford, BC, Canada).

 

[IndigoSkies]

One bone in right forearm broken, so can type lefty a bit. 2 weeks in I can type a little with right too...but slow going (that lengthy post took 10x the time to write it usually would).

For work, where I’m at a computer, I’ve been using “speech to text” software instead of typing with some success.

If you have access, do physical therapy and do all the exercises they say to do at home. I broke my leg, but got diagnosed with a sprained ankle (dumb, dumb, dumb) then started having problems with it. I did go to PT when it started acting up years later and it was a big help. Even if you can't make the appts, at least do the recommended home stuff like its your job. Makes a big difference I think. I had issues with scar tissue and man, when it started to act up, it felt like I was being burned with each step bc the tissue was all tight and scarred.

 

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

If you have access, do physical therapy and do all the exercises they say to do at home. I broke my leg, but got diagnosed with a sprained ankle (dumb, dumb, dumb) then started having problems with it. I did go to PT when it started acting up years later and it was a big help. Even if you can't make the appts, at least do the recommended home stuff like its your job. Makes a big difference I think. I had issues with scar tissue and man, when it started to act up, it felt like I was being burned with each step bc the tissue was all tight and scarred.

It's good advice. I'm a bad patient by nature, but am going to do my best. I need that arm for compost shoveling, fencing projects, reclaiming lumber for projects, and playing with the kids.

I'm such a bad patient that when I came in and said I needed to go to the hospital, my wife turned ghost white. She said "YOU want to go to the hospital...oh man, this must be BAD".

 

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

There might be something youre interested in https://abundantpermaculture.com/how-to-feed-chickens-without-grain/ there. There were some mentions of composting as a means in that article. I bet a lot of these permaculture geniuses have composting strategies for getting more brown matter in there. Sounds like you're doing great though (aside from your arm! that sucks!). I think comfrey sounds like a good idea. When we move I think I want to plan to move them around. I found his site bc I was looking for one of these https://abundantpermaculture.com/chicken-tractor-diy/ to move them around. His content is great, but the videos are too fast for me lol. He really talks super fast and I'm like wait huh? I'm also interested in trying out fermented grains bc they say it reduces feed costs a lot. It also seems easy enough. I think I want to try the garbage can feeders or maybe just a bucket and let them choose which items to eat.

Yes, that's Justin Rhodes....he's got some interesting stuff and has a real passion for practicing and teaching permaculture principles. I've watched a bunch of his videos...much of what he does is good stuff, although some I don't necessarily agree with.

And yes, I think if you have the space, chicken tractors and pasturing is an amazing way to raise healthy, happy chickens while building soil. I don't have the space for it, sadly.

I have been thinking about comfry as well. May guy some next year to plant outside my run where the flock can't reach, then cut and toss over the fence to give them a nice bit of greenery in their diet.

If you're on YouTube, check out "Edible Acres"...he does some impressive stuff with food waste, compost, and chickens.

 

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

The free choice is an interesting idea for sure. Hadn't read much about that before. Will have to read up more on it, thanks for the links!

I'm starting to play around with sprouting seeds IN the compost. I've done it on a small scale, but hope to do it at a larger scale once the wing heals.

 

[Phaedra Geiermann]

Agree with you, whatever said it's the only or the best solution made me suspicious.

Similar discussion happened to the commercial and homemade feeds for cats and dogs.

Absolutely right or wrong rule doesn't really exist, just like there are so many different ways of living. For me, most of the time it's about making choices with context.

 

[saysfaa]

Lots of discussions I've read seem to suggest that commercial chicken feed is the "BEST" or "ONLY" way to feed chickens. To each his own, but I decided to scratch at this a bit (I must be part chicken).

So, if chicken feed is so great....why? What's in it that you can't get elsewhere?

I found a chicken feed concentrate by Form-A-Feed, the idea being that you buy the concentrate, and mix it with grains you either grow yourself, or buy locally for cheaper (or at least with a bit lower carbon cost).

Description from the web site:


Great! The secret ingredients in chicken feed! Where do these magical compounds come from?

Calcium, we all know comes from egg shells and/or oyster shell.

What about protein, lysine, methionine, and phosphorus? They can be found in....MEAT!

Vitamins? They can be found in VEGETABLES!

Salt, which is only needed in small amounts, can be found in....MARGARITTAS! Wait...no, other foods (or in mineral form).

No word on what the trace minerals are, but I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be attainable.

Again, not saying there's anything wrong with commercial chicken feed. It's clearly the most convenient way, and in many cases, likely the cheapest way, to feed your chickens a well-balanced diet. All I'm saying is it may not be the ONLY way.

What I can't get elsewhere is selenium. Technically, I can buy it. What I can't get is the right amount because the window between deficient and toxic is pretty narrow, the amount in the main ingredients varies from severely deficient to toxic depending on where the plant grew, and I use very little so it would need amounts too small for me to measure even if I could measure the amount needed or find/justify the cost of sending samples to a lab.

Because I can't solve the selenium, I haven't looked very far into manganese, zinc, or iodine. I know deficiency and toxicity are both concerns in chickens for each of these but I don't know how narrow the windows are or much about work arounds like testing.

I live in a wet climate with variable but often sandy soil thanks to the glaciers. Nutrients tend to leach away because of the sand. They do so unevenly because of the varied soil composition and varied water movements over and through the soil. Every non-hobby-level farmer I know or know of tests the soil and fertilizes to replace the nutrients lost by leeching and harvesting but it is still going to be variable for a lot of reasons. I know a few very serious hobby farmers who go by symptoms in the plants and by which plants/weeds thrive and most farmers use that too, at least a little.

I agree commercial isn't the only way to feed chickens. I might argue it is the best way for most situations (among other reasons, my region and similar neighboring regions ship a whole lot of corn, wheat, oats, rye, and soybeans to the rest of the world).

Other ways work more or less; there is a lot of resilience built into natural systems. If something is too high or too low, the bird dies. If it is only somewhat high or somewhat low, she may look and act fine but be vulnerable to (fill in the blank differently for different elements). For example: selenium is important in chickens for dealing with stress. If a chicken reacts badly to the summer heat - was it the heat? Or low selenium levels that caused the problem? Having the right amount of selenium means less intervention/management is needed on hot summer days.

It is only "might argue it is the best way" because someone might rather spend a lot of effort to manage heat or accept losses from "heat" - obviously, heat is only one kind of stress and dealing with stress in only one of the things selenium does and there are other essential nutrients.

Added pictures to show my feed mill makes feed that looks like food. Pepper's latest egg for scale. And, because, you know, eggs are really cool when they come from Pepper.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

What I can't get elsewhere is selenium. Technically, I can buy it. What I can't get is the right amount because the window between deficient and toxic is pretty narrow, the amount in the main ingredients varies from severely deficient to toxic depending on where the plant grew, and I use very little so it would need amounts too small for me to measure even if I could measure the amount needed or find/justify the cost of sending samples to a lab.

Because I can't solve the selenium, I haven't looked very far into manganese, zinc, or iodine. I know deficiency and toxicity are both concerns in chickens for each of these but I don't know how narrow the windows are or much about work arounds like testing.

I live in a wet climate with variable but often sandy soil thanks to the glaciers. Nutrients tend to leach away because of the sand. They do so unevenly because of the varied soil composition and varied water movements over and through the soil. Every non-hobby-level farmer I know or know of tests the soil and fertilizes to replace the nutrients lost by leeching and harvesting but it is still going to be variable for a lot of reasons. I know a few very serious hobby farmers who go by symptoms in the plants and by which plants/weeds thrive and most farmers use that too, at least a little.

I agree commercial isn't the only way to feed chickens. I might argue it is the best way for most situations (among other reasons, my region and similar neighboring regions ship a whole lot of corn, wheat, oats, rye, and soybeans to the rest of the world).

Other ways work more or less; there is a lot of resilience built into natural systems. If something is too high or too low, the bird dies. If it is only somewhat high or somewhat low, she may look and act fine but be vulnerable to (fill in the blank differently for different elements). For example: selenium is important in chickens for dealing with stress. If a chicken reacts badly to the summer heat - was it the heat? Or low selenium levels that caused the problem? Having the right amount of selenium means less intervention/management is needed on hot summer days.

It is only "might argue it is the best way" because someone might rather spend a lot of effort to manage heat or accept losses from "heat" - obviously, heat is only one kind of stress and dealing with stress in only one of the things selenium does and there are other essential nutrients.

^^^ and that is the value of Commercial feeds. At home, we don't have the training, the lab, or the resources to do nutritional testing on each batch of ingredients, and reformulate our feeds "on the fly" to adapt to changes in the trace contents of the inputs. All we can do is cross fingers and hope that things average out.

Commercial mills, homogenizing things from numerous (generally "local") sources with guaranteed minimums and some amount of nutritional testing can do so, however, providing a more regular and reliable product.

That doesn't mean, necessarily, that home-made feeding is "bad". But given the stunning amount of ignorance on display even among posters who cared enough about their chickens to sign up here on BYC and comment, people whom I generally consider to be more intelligent and better educated regarding chickens than most, I can't assume that home-made feed is generally "good". Time and again, the opposite seems true - not out of malice, simply out of ignorance and the placement of trust in those unworthy of it, often for no reason other than distrust of things they don't understand.

DISTRUST IS GOOD. You should distrust Garden Betty at least as much as you Distrust the local Co-op, and as much as the national "brand". And distrust the feed store employees more than all those sources. Oh, and for those thinking I'm entirely against home feeds, the J Rhode's recipe I found (not from his site, but from another, claiming to present his recipe) is actually pretty decent, given purportedly average values for the inputs. (It has no small resemblance to recipes of 100 years ago, with meat scraps replaced by a mix of winter peas and fish meal). You could do a whole lot worse - and many eagerly do so...